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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think men have no right to stand outside abortion clinics and do this.

787 replies

QuestioningStuff · 22/06/2015 09:36

Posted before about my pregnancy. I am having a termination today. This is not a decision I've made lightly.

I've arrived at the clinic and there is a middle aged man and his young teen son standing outside with camp chairs and flasks. Putting up awful pictures and signs. Trying to hand out leaflets.

I think women who do this are also scum but how on earth could a man think he has any right to do this? Turn up at a place where women are at their most scared and vulnerable and try to bully them?

It's really really upset me. I hate them so much right now.

I want to go and tell them exactly what I think of them but don't think that would be helpful at this time.

OP posts:
OnlyLovers · 23/06/2015 15:21

It wasn't a "try" or an attempt at evasion. I was asked and I won't cast judgment on people I don't know in situations I was not in.

I think it is ghoulish of a third party to try and get involved and encourage that to make a point.

Yes, I know why you think someone encouraging you to cast judgement is 'ghoulish'. But my point is that I WASN'T encouraging you to cast judgement; I was asking you to discuss and expand on your opinions in the light of that post about that subject.

But I think you do actually realise that and you're just calling me ghoulish and making a big thing about how non-judgmental you are so you can clasp your hands and gaze heavenwards and look pious.

Hasn't worked though.

lastuseraccount123 · 23/06/2015 15:22

agreed denim.

i just wanted to discuss the "i'd rather be alive than not" POV. For me personally, my abortion was mainly determined by my horrible childhood. There have been many, many times in the past where I wished I had never been born. Having an abortion both was and wasn't an easy decision, but knowing what I know about how much impact poor parenting and mental illness can have, I was not about to do anything to risk my child's wellbeing by having another child I could not cope with. That's why it pisses me off no end when some self-righteous git thinks they can stand in front of an abortion clinic and assume it's all black and white and they are right with their posters of unrealistic abortion images.

lastuseraccount123 · 23/06/2015 15:22

agreed only. I'm not fooled either.

OnlyLovers · 23/06/2015 15:22

Hi Enormouse. I think you're lovely too. Cake

And I'll be forever grateful to you for the 'field in which I keep my fucks' image. Grin

Enormouse · 23/06/2015 15:28

Behold my field of fucks Grin.

And lo, the rains did not come. And there was nary a fuck come harvest time.

To think men have no right to stand outside abortion clinics and do this.
OnlyLovers · 23/06/2015 15:33

'And there was nary a fuck come harvest time.' Grin Grin Grin

Lndnmummy · 23/06/2015 15:39

Wishing you well for today OP. I understand you are upset. I was too

limitedperiodonly · 23/06/2015 15:50

As I said, it's with a heavy heart but I would not stop these protests, but God, .

Take care, OP Flowers

Denimwithdenim00 · 23/06/2015 15:51

last just Flowers and my thoughts with you.

FolknNorah · 23/06/2015 16:43

Flowers OP I hope you're looking after yourself.

sashh · 23/06/2015 17:10

They both said that this is the reason they stand outside the clinic. Because they know that there are many other women like them for whom abortion is not a matter of choice.

Yet they made that choice? No one pinned them down and forced them in to abortion did they?

And I'm sure that story has been doing the rounds for years.

fizzyrubbish · 23/06/2015 17:55

OP Flowers

There's a lot of assumption going on in this thread. It would be nice if we could treat everyone in good faith.

Firstly I don't believe Marie of Romania is talking rubbish. The group to whom she refers are not those who are out there with the graphic images (there's a whole other thread) and actually they do a lot of hands-on work to help pregnant women, particularly those on the margins, such as Eastern European immigrants, who feel that they really do have no other choice. When I found myself unexpectedly pregnant for the 4th time in five years and was on the verge of breakdown, wondering how I would cope, they offered me an au-pair for as long I needed. Equally I know of someone whose rent they paid. Far from hating women, the founder, who I know, says that you can't do the kind of work she does, unless you have an innate love for women and her and her volunteers quite literally pick up those women whom everyone else wants to abandon and write-off. One of the things they do is literally pick up vomiting and bleeding women leaving the clinic off the streets, take them to a cafe or somewhere safe and warm, stay with them, make sure they are alright and pay for a taxi home for them. That's far more than the clinics do, and not the actions of someone who wishes to judge or condemn women.

This particular group doesn't offer cast-off baby clothes or empty promises, but delivers real actual targeted help to the women who feel that they have no other choice than to have an abortion. They do things like provide brand new maternity clothes, buggies, oyster cards, supermarket shops, babysitting, not just a pretty one-off layette. Women who are on minimum wage, women who are entitled to no benefits, women who have nothing to eat, nowhere to stay and feel like they would be condemning a baby to a terrible life of poverty and deprivation. The help is not short-term either, they run baby and toddler groups and provide friendship, support and help for as long as the mother needs it and so many mothers, like the ones Marie alludes to, do actually join them on vigils outside the clinic.

Many times they appreciate that women are in desperate situations, but aim to give them a real choice. Why do they do this outside the clinics? Not to harass (indeed there has been no arrests or prosecutions ever, so why the need for legislation) but actually to provide a last-minute escape route, one that is taken by many women.

It's a difficult and harrowing time for women as I know, I had an abortion myself feeling like I had no other choice. The abortion clinic offered me no other options and sympathetically agreed that it 'wasn't the right time to have a baby'. They didn't tell me what an early medical abortion would be like for me, until after they had inserted the pessary, nor did anyone ever try to warn me of the sense of loss or grief that I would feel. Or how this would later come back to bite me in the backside when I eventually had a child. When I went for my abortion I was warned that there might be protestors. I went in all guns blazing, really angry that someone might want to challenge my right to choose, and wanting to have a fight/confrontation with someone. I was disappointed that there was no-one there on the two occasions I visited for the appointments. In hindsight, I think that meant that I was looking for a challenge and certainly I expected a bit of a grilling from the abortion clinic, I felt like I'd really need to justify my decision, having read up a bit about the Abortion Act, and no-one asked me anything. I felt like a piece of meat in a factory. And all the staff treated me like I'd been a silly little girl. I guess they saw women like me all day, every day, I wasn't particularly special, I was no different to any other woman who was pregnant and didn't want to me. There was no acknowledgement that this was a horrible or difficult decision. OK so you want an abortion, rightyho you can have one, try to be more careful in future, next please.

The telling thing for me in all this is how everyone is acknowledging what a hard decision this is for so many women. If it was about merely not wanting to be pregnant, then women wouldn't feel so vulnerable. But it's not merely about no longer wanting to be pregnant, but what has to happen for that to occur. You know if there were people standing outside GPs surgeries protesting about birth control and telling women not to use it, then everyone would think they were nutters and/or laugh at them. But these pro-lifers aren't calling women 'sluts' or even 'murderers', not even the graphic image folk. They are protesting the reality of what happens inside the clinics and that is why they provoke such a strong reaction.

People feel like they are being judged and that equates to harassment. They aren't being judged, it's just pro-lifers are acknowledging and witnessing to what they believe is the tragedy of abortion. In the same way you might get people holding a candlelit vigil outside a place of capital punishment, those on vigils want to pray outside a place where they believe babies are being killed and offer an alternative. That's a very different prospect to harassment.

Denimwithdenim00 · 23/06/2015 18:04

Fizzy take all that on board but please can you also acknowledge they got some women it really isn't a hard or harrowing choice. Not all womem are disturbed or upset in the long term about abortions. Some are fairly ok with the proceedure and are just glad it's over and want to move on.

Not everyone feels they have no choice but to abort but in fact choose willingly to abort and need nobodies help, sanction or sympathy In their choice.

So all groups well meaning or otherwise should stick to putting up their contact details in surgeries and clinics and wait until women choose to use their services and meanwhile fuck off from outside clinics.

lastuseraccount123 · 23/06/2015 18:09

fizzy i'm glad you got the help you needed.

However, i disagree that all protestors are not there to harrass. If that was the case why was my abortion clinic locked up like a prison with such extreme security measures?

LibrariesGaveUsPower · 23/06/2015 18:13

What is the name of the charity fizzy?

fizzyrubbish · 23/06/2015 18:17

Also I think you have to remember that wherever you stand on the pro-life, pro-choice spectrum, those outside the clinic genuinely believe that lives are being taken inside the clinic.

We can argue about that point until the cows come home, whether or not you believe a foetus to be a human being, what constitutes personhood etc, but if, as the pro-lifers do, you believe that life starts from conception, that lives are being unnecessarily taken, then you can surely understand the compulsion to do what they can to stop this and to offer women another way?

Those who have the images are unapologetic and defiant about what they do, but they aren't thinking "I hate women, I want to shame and harass them". They are thinking what can we do to stop this? Men tend to find that they react to more visual stimuli hence the images. They are also quite logical, so while they might have compassion (and many of them do) they are also single-minded about what they are trying to achieve.

To call people 'scum' because they are trying to do what they believe is right (even if you think it is misguided) might scratch an itch, but it's really venting anger that anyone might try to tell a woman she is wrong

A decision to abort is not necessarily the right decision, just because a woman has made it. Otherwise that would make abortions on the grounds of gender perfectly acceptable, when every single MP has condemned this and the government has pointed out its illegal.

Choosing to have an abortion means terminating the life inside you, which is never easy, especially when you don't know whether or not you'll be able to have another, or you are already a mother. Perhaps that would be a great point of common consensus and pro-life, pro-choice ought to work together to find ways of making abortion, a far less common occurrence.

lastuseraccount123 · 23/06/2015 18:20

Oh ffs. Like we don't know that already.

sorry fizzy, you say nothing that we haven't heard eleventy-trillion times before.

like I said, I'm glad you got help.

fizzyrubbish · 23/06/2015 18:26

But not all surgeries will allow these groups to advertise, because they don't offer abortion as an option and they don't take an impartial stance. They will tell women that they don't agree with abortion. Which obviously some don't want to hear.

If women are ok about their decision then there should be no beef with a group of people standing outside praying, or whatever.

No idea why there were extreme security measures, I think it suits the abortion clinics to buy into the US idea of the culture wars, but the reality is that there have been no arrests for harassment and no-one harmed by pro-lifers. The clinics don't like the idea that anyone might deter their clients. It suits them to portray the pro-lifers as dangerous fundamentalist nutters.

As for the charity - it's a London-based religious one. Do a google. They don't do the images and a lot of their work is under the radar because they are running on a tight budget/shoestring and can't afford the glossy campaigns. They are out there rolling up their sleeves.

LibrariesGaveUsPower · 23/06/2015 18:28

Why so coy on the name fizzy?

twofingerstoGideon · 23/06/2015 18:32

I also want to know the name of the charity. Why would you want to withhold it if you believe they 'save babies'?

BitOutOfPractice · 23/06/2015 18:33

I don't agree that these are peaceful protests though are they. They are acrive harrassment of women going about their lawful duty

twofingerstoGideon · 23/06/2015 18:37

If women are ok about their decision then there should be no beef with a group of people standing outside praying, or whatever.

Attitudes like this that disgust me. They smacks of misogyny and show no regard for the decision-making process the woman has gone through. I don't these groups need assistance in portraying themselves as dangerous fundamentalist nutters as, by and large, that is precisely what they are.

How dare you shove your prayers in the faces of people whose circumstances you know nothing about? How dare you harass them (because that is exactly what it is)?

twofingerstoGideon · 23/06/2015 18:37

Sorry. So angry my English has gone to shit.

Dawndonnaagain · 23/06/2015 18:39

[[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-30116191
Buying into the US culture?]]

twofingerstoGideon · 23/06/2015 18:44

For the record, fizzy, I've supported two friends whose fetuses had anencephaly. One was Irish and forced to carry her baby to term and deliver her son, only to watch him die less than an hour later. The other had a late termination. My Irish friend was severely traumatised by being forced against her will to continue a non-viable pregnancy. The other was, of course, grief-stricken, too, as her baby was very much wanted, but she and her partner were able to make their own decisions about what happened and took a great deal of comfort from that.

So fuck off with the 'it's just praying, so what's the problem...' You know the square root of fuck-all about these women.