To think men have no right to stand outside abortion clinics and do this.

[QuestioningStuff]

Posted before about my pregnancy. I am having a termination today. This is not a decision I've made lightly.

I've arrived at the clinic and there is a middle aged man and his young teen son standing outside with camp chairs and flasks. Putting up awful pictures and signs. Trying to hand out leaflets.

I think women who do this are also scum but how on earth could a man think he has any right to do this? Turn up at a place where women are at their most scared and vulnerable and try to bully them?

It's really really upset me. I hate them so much right now.

I want to go and tell them exactly what I think of them but don't think that would be helpful at this time.

Does it matter what rules I might set if i believed in setting the rules? It will never affect anyone in any case, and is not my decision to make. Not that either of these things makes it less tragic, or makes a person a spiteful bully for protesting against it. Harassment notwithstanding, but that is actually against the law already.

Can you offer your idea of 'due diligence' then, srogo? Perhaps with reference to what Enormouse has posted on the subject.

It's also insulting to assume that other women are incapable of making a decision without 'due diligence' (whatever that is). Or display 'due diligence' in a way that you think they should. I probably didn't look like I was giving it due dilligence, I had to put a smile on my face for part of the day, not self flagellate constantly and make an effort to appear human for my dc.

Women are self aware and intelligent enough to grasp the magnitude of the decision they're making with their own bodies. You don't need to worry whether they're capable of making this decision.

YANBU - protesters should protest outside parliament where laws are made not outside of the clinic. Protesters who wait outside abortion clinics are nothing more than bullies.

Also, hope today goes as well as it can. Tough decision but the right one for you and your family. x

So why bring up 'due diligence' then? If you're not prepared to spell out what you mean by it?

Or did you just want to make a sad face about all those feckless women aborting foetuses without a care in the world?

"Can you offer your idea of 'due diligence' then, srogo? Perhaps with reference to what Enormouse has posted on the subject."

I will absolutely not cast moral judgment on individual MNer for their difficult decisions, no, and I think it's ghoulish of you as a third party to try and encourage me to.

Does it matter what rules I might set if i believed in setting the rules?

Yes, it does if the rules/due diligence are part of your stance and therefore part of the argument you're putting forward on here. It's only fair to expect to be asked to explain, defend and expand on your statements in a debate.

Right, srogo you bring up the topic of abortions being carried out without 'due diligence' and yet other posters are 'ghoulish' for asking you what you mean by that?

I will absolutely not cast moral judgment on individual MNer for their difficult decisions, no, and I think it's ghoulish of you as a third party to try and encourage me to.

Where do I ask you to cast judgement?

Enormouse presents her circumstances/experience in the context of asking whether you think they count as 'due diligence', a phrase you introduced to the thread. I'm interested in your answers to the same question.

'ghoulish' . Nice try, but come off it.

"protesters should protest outside parliament where laws are made not outside of the clinic. Protesters who wait outside abortion clinics are nothing more than bullies."

Who's to say that a person who wants people to abort less, wants the law changed to enforce it?

What if you don't want to take away people's safety and their personal perogative, but you do want to persuade them to make different choices?

Not actually in favour of the clinic protests, but wishing for fewer abortions/no medically unnecessary abortions or whatever your position might be, doesn't necessarily mean you want laws and medicine of the 15th century - so lobbying parliament isn't necessarily the logical alternative for everyone.

Yanbu. I think it's appalling that this is allowed and jaw droppingly awful that people feel they can do this to vulnerable women. Unfortunately it's not illegal but only you know the ins and outs of your situation and you've nothing at all to feel bad about. Good luck

Yep, I'd like clarification on 'due diligence'.

I'm not bothered by being judged either. I'm at peace with my decision.

So, have at it.

2'ghoulish' grin. Nice try, but come off it."

It wasn't a "try" or an attempt at evasion. I was asked and I won't cast judgment on people I don't know in situations I was not in.

I think it is ghoulish of a third party to try and get involved and encourage that to make a point.

"What if you don't want to take away people's safety and their personal perogative, but you do want to persuade them to make different choices?"

That is just nonsense - you contradicted yourself. Persuading them to change their mind IS taking away their personal prerogative!

srogo so you did just want to make an unchallenged point about feckless women aborting willy-nilly. It would have been easier if you had just come out and said that.

"I'm not bothered by being judged either. I'm at peace with my decision.

So, have at it"

I feel for the situation you found yourself in, and I won't set myself up as your judge, and that's all.

only I don't think you're being ghoulish. I think youre lovely.

I'm pretty sure you still have to have two doctors signatures. And they're not that easy to get, it's not like signing off repeat prescriptions.

Point is it doesn't matter if they have given it due diligence or not.
The law is the law

A woman has a legal right to access a termination if it will impact on her emotional or physical well being.

This can be anything from a dv situation to someone who just doesn't want to be tied down to the responsibility of a child or even someone who just finds the timing difficult. and is scared of not fitting into her skinny jeans.

Morally you can not agree with these choices, and you may not make the same choice as her if you were in the same situation.
But that is the point. It is your choice, the same as it is hers.

You can not agree with it and still respect the right to have it

"That is just nonsense - you contradicted yourself. Persuading them to change their mind IS taking away their personal prerogative!"

No, I didn't and it isn't. People control their own minds. Changing someone's mind is the opposite of compulsion.

Thank you srogo. That's very kind of you. But I'm very open about my experiences and of course that leads to judgement and a ton of support.

If you do take anything from this debate, please know that the decision to abort is very very very rarely taken lightly. Certain groups and parts of the media would have you believe women use it as an easy contraceptive but real life is not like that.

I'm sorry for the circumstances that have meant you won't have children

Please don't take it as patronising or unpleasant in any way. I think it is only decent, personally, and I am not the reductive or reactionary type who wants to have a pop when I know life is hard.

Only reason for piping up at all is it's easy to forget that a sincerely held position does change the complexion of the matter for other people, and doesn't mean someone wants to bully and condemn to get their kicks. That's not where I'm coming from, and the only other people I know who are... I guess "pro life" are much better, nicer people than me.

You would have been able to explain your views without making it personal. If you can explain a bit further, that'd be helpful. I was just offering my situation to provide some context. But I understand that you feel it's not a decision to be taken lightly. And I can leave it at that.

You have sincerely held beliefs and I respect your position on this.

Please stop using the ridiculous words pro life or pro abortion. It's pro choice. That's the only stance for a sensible person anyway.

Abortion for convenience is fine, abortion for any reason a woman wishes should he fine and the only response from a doctor should be 'yes of course'.

Men have no rights over women's bodies or choices and neither should other women.

Keep beaks out of other people's choices.

Women should have the right of complete bodily autonomy and an absolute right to aboerion on demand throughout her pregnancy for any reason.

Until we have that we have no equal rights to men.