To think men have no right to stand outside abortion clinics and do this.

[QuestioningStuff]

Posted before about my pregnancy. I am having a termination today. This is not a decision I've made lightly.

I've arrived at the clinic and there is a middle aged man and his young teen son standing outside with camp chairs and flasks. Putting up awful pictures and signs. Trying to hand out leaflets.

I think women who do this are also scum but how on earth could a man think he has any right to do this? Turn up at a place where women are at their most scared and vulnerable and try to bully them?

It's really really upset me. I hate them so much right now.

I want to go and tell them exactly what I think of them but don't think that would be helpful at this time.

"Abortions for convenience? You're not "butting out" with that turn of phrase. That nails your colours to the mast.

Being broke and trapped in a poverty trap for about 14 years + or linked to an abusive man for the rest of your life is more than an inconvenience."

You mistake me, I am making clear the fact that some people hold a different view that is not based on any kind of malice or wish to bully anyone. I wasn't claiming moral superiority, or expecting anyone to justify themselves to me, and indeed stated quite clearly that there may be occasions where the choice is made for the good.

Srogo - It isn't trite. The fact that you believe it to be shows how very, very, very little you seem to understand about this topic. An unplanned pregnancy can be a disaster of unmitigated fucking proportions. It can tie women to violent partners for life. It can result in them being unable to care for the children that they have. It can result in crippling, life-risking depression. Disaster is a pretty mild way of putting the devastation it can cause. Yes, some terminations happen for more low key 'social' reasons, and I support the right of those women to bodily autonomy too.

It's clearly neither, but a statement that abortion is not gender specific in terms of the persons terminated.

If I'm understanding this right, you mean that men should have a say in whether to terminate male foetuses. Does this mean that ONLY men should have this say? ie their opinion outweighs that of the person carrying the foetus?

And does the opposite apply: do you think that women and ONLY women should make the decision of whether to terminate a female foetus?

It's clearly neither, but a statement that abortion is not gender specific in terms of the persons terminated.

Er, that has fuck all to do with it. IrishDad claimed men had a right to comment, if only on the termination of male foetuses. I respect the right of someone to be anti-legal-termination. That is their right. To suggest that they have a right to comment because of the sex of the foetus is one of the things I listed or the other.

No, I am responding to your inane comments.

I see that this thread is the first time you've posted on MN (at least with this name). So I'm guessing some form of klaxon has gone off somewhere. Classy.

"If I'm understanding this right, you mean that men should have a say in whether to terminate male foetuses."

Which part of "not gender specific" seemed gender specific to you? Are you not-blind?

srogo, genuine question: how do you come to that conclusion from Libraries' posts?

Ive never read anything more trite than ''abortions for convenience''. that is wilfully ignorant of the amount of responsibility that comes with a dependant, how isolating and lonely poverty can be

srogo, can you answer my question: 'does this mean that ONLY men should have this say? ie their opinion outweighs that of the person carrying the foetus?

And does the opposite apply: do you think that women and ONLY women should make the decision of whether to terminate a female foetus?'

Thanks.

srogo, the sex of the foetus is not the point.

Yes onlylovers I was wondering that too.

The issue I have with the 'abortions of convenience' phrase is that it's horrendously judgemental of a women's decision to terminate.

Good abortion - rape, foetal anomaly, incest
Bad abortion - anything else.

No one has the right to sit in judgement of the decision a woman has to make. It may be difficult to make, or easy. But it's never taken lightly.

"does this mean that ONLY men should have this say? ie their opinion outweighs that of the person carrying the foetus?"

I thought I covered that line of reasoning with this, so I'll quote it to you:

Which part of "not gender specific" seemed gender specific to you? Are you not-blind?"

The idea that somebody of either sex would step in to speak out against the termination of one sex foetus first and foremost over the other sex is just demented.

The point is surely to be aware that the adult woman, who is already, born is the one who will have to deal with the repercussions of a pregnancy.

Srogo, if you are dealing with infertility I sympathise but you can't act like a baby is always a blessing. It can be. If often is. But you can't force others to be able to cope with the responsibility. You sound like you could talk things through with somebody.

Why will you never experience a pregnancy, srogo?

srogo, I genuinely don't understand your answer. I apologise; it must be frustrating for you.

But if you answer me again, in different words, I may understand.

And again, this is GENUINE. I am not goading or being obtuse. I genuinely don't understand.

I think protesting against it is a pretty small and measured response, really, and am not surprised people feel moved to.

I think there is general agreement that there should be a right to protest. The issue is the method of protest. It's absolutely fine to protest to the lawmakers. It is not fine to protest by harassing women in the vicinity of clinics.

"The issue I have with the 'abortions of convenience' phrase is that it's horrendously judgemental of a women's decision to terminate."

Sorry, it might be weighted by the fact I consider an abortion a death of a human being and worry about the possibility of it being done without due diligence, without any wish to make anyone feel bad.

If you differ on this, it probably does not keep you awake at night and seems melodramatic.

Don't you still have to have two doctors' sign-offs to get an abortion? Isn't that 'due diligence'?

What does 'due diligence' look like, srogo?

"Srogo, if you are dealing with infertility I sympathise but you can't act like a baby is always a blessing"

It's not whether it's a blessing, if you understand. It's a point of reason for me as well as emotion. If a human being would be the outcome, then a human being is being terminated.

I'm not absolutist enough to suggest it is my choice to dictate others' hard decisions, or unthinking enough to say it is always a bad thing. I just thought I would point out that without any wish to be a "bully" or hurt anyone's feelings, this simple point of ethics changes the whole thing, and given the context of different viewpoints, a protest is not beyond understanding.

I would be in support of care re harassment. I don't think sweeping these people under the carpet is necessarily the right thing to do.

Is due dilligence thinking about what to do constantly for the 4 weeks I waited to book my termination?

Wondering whether I could go through with it. Weighing up the impact on my family and other children. If I did go through with it would my oldest developmentally delayed DS be able to cope with the change. How would I make the finances stretch. Would I be able to continue studying with 3 kids under 4. What impact would there be on my mental health. And my partners for that matter.

Cos that definitely felt like due dilligence to me.

"Don't you still have to have two doctors' sign-offs to get an abortion? Isn't that 'due diligence'?"

I'm going to just say probably not in my opinion, others will disagree.

Again, srogo, what does 'due diligence' look like to you?

I think this article is a pretty eloquent description of why you don't have to say "ooh, it's just a blob of cells' to be pro choice.