to fast during Ramadan even though I'm not a Muslim...

[MrsStrawberry]

Not Muslim, or even religious at all in general. Have many Muslim friends and whilst never tempted to take part before have recently been looking into it more and like the idea behind it... But don't want to mention it to anyone as I think I sound like a pretentious twat

And some posters love to come on and tell us Muslims how we are all defensive and victims just like on another fasting thread running at the moment. But it's a bit hard not to get defensive with posts like cactus's.
Yes we are all trying to brainwash you into converting. That is exactly why all the Muslims on this thread have said go for it. Not cos we're just nice normal people who think it's a nice things to do bit because we are extremist psychos who are desperate to lure in all you innocent non Muslims.
WTAF

I don't eat during work hours during Ramadam. Part of this is because I'm trialling the 16:8 eating plan. Part of this is because about half my office and all my line reports are fasting. I do drink, though I stick to green tea ( not coffee which would just be cruel). I guess I do it because it's a little cruel to subject them to food smells when they are trying their best. It also helps me to be aware of when my colleagues are not at their best so we can work around it. Because it is the height of summer this year, they mostly come in early and leave early as this is when they are at their best. There's also nothing worse than trying to navigate the underground on a hot day during rush hour if you have't had a drink for 12 hours.

I have friends who live in the Middle East and quite enjoy the Ramadam fast, even though they are all godless heathens. They describe it to me as a time of community and common struggle. Plus breaking the fast is always sociable.

Just as a random aside what do diabetic Muslims do during Ramadan? It would be dangerous for them to fast so do they just not?

Some do some don't.
The ones that do just manage their diabetes in a different way. Taking their mediation and different times I suppose. I know my cousin's husband who is an imam fasts and is diabetic. He still takes his insulin jabs. But I also think that if it is severe it's fine not to fast

I tell you it's not easy, I tried it for a few days when I lived in Dubai! I just didn't have the willpower

There are a lot of exceptions to the rule: you don't have to fast if you are a young child, or very old, pregnant, nursing or in poor health. You can also get special dispensations from your imam if you're doing a particular job, for instance soldiers on deployment, athletes competing for their country in international competitions, or surgeons doing complicated work etc. Fast days missed during Ramadan can be made up at another time.

That said, some people who, for health reasons, I think really ought not to be fasting do anyway, out of piety, social pressure, or for other reasons. I suppose they know their bodies best, though.

xiaozhu A few things we need to clear up here:

Firstly:

I don't see anyone playing the victim here. That in itself is the sort of comment people make in order shut victims up. But as I said, I don't actually see anyone on this thread dealing the victim card

Suggesting an alternative view, or indeed using a turn of phrase, is not trying to make ones opponent 'shut up.' It is, in short, offering another point of view. And it is, in effect, offering ones opponent an opportunity to respond to the argument.

I think those posters saying the OP is a 'pretentious twat' are the ones doing the shouting - even though she asked the question, why would anyone think that?

Anyone using the term 'pretentious twat' did so due to the OP's description and invitation to use the term. The reason someone would think that is because we all have the ability to infer, reference and comment.

I think comments like this need shutting down and dismissing

Part of living in a democracy involves listening to views that you don't necessarily agree with or adhere to. Most of us would like to engage in reasonable debate. It is called debate because we are not always in agreement with each other and therefore can facilitate and educate each other. If I make a statement that someone else disagrees with, then I don't think that they should be 'shut down/dismissed.' I'd rather read their point of view if for nothing then to understand the other side of the argument.

I didn't accuse anyone of racism: more Islamophobia

Equally, I don't see any Islamophobia on this thread. Not because I'm blinkered but because there hasn't been any. I'm assuming you are familiar with MN talk guidelines? To that end, had there been any sort of Islamophobia the post would have been deleted quicker than someone could have taken issue with it.... give or take a few minutes. Having said that, Islamophobia is a form of racism, so let's not split hairs over the matter.

Some have said it's just plain hostility to religion, but then I don't think there'd be such vitriolic 'debate' if someone had just casually wondered what to give up for Lent

People are more than welcome to be hostile to all forms of religion irrespective of whatever religion. Some see religion as the source of war, conflict and oppression. They are welcome to hold such views. The 'vitriolic debate' is not vitriolic at all, it is an exchange of opposing views. If someone had wondered what to give up for Lent then I'm sure we'd all have offered up our own opinions ranging from 'Lent is useless' to 'Give up chocolate' etc.

And you say MN is a very PC arena? That's what I find most worrying

Not sure why you find that worrying but I can accept that you do. The point is that if you read back certain threads, in fact even one recently regarding a woman wearing a Niqab selling ice-cream you will see that a great deal of posters said they'd prefer to see the face of the ice-cream seller and others saying it is just ice-cream so either buy it or don't. Everything else is irrelevant. In fact, have you ever seen the way posters and HQ come down like a ton of bricks on ageist or disablist language?

Anyway, I think Cactus has just closed my case for me.

Maybe Cactus has. I'm not the judge of when you choose to close your case, but using one opinion on a talk forum discussion which has now extended to nearly 200 hundred opinions and using it to validate your argument doesn't actually help your argument.

Finally, when you retorted that:

She (the OP) didn't explain why she wants to fast...And yes, it would help if the poster explained why she wants to fast

The poster did actually explain why she wants to fast. As I recall the poster said: "The ideas I like behind it are the self-discipline/ self-restraint, the health benefits of fasting, the increased awareness and appreciation of stuff you'd normally take for granted and those who don't have as much."

So you clearly read the thread and made your own conclusions but the poster had responded and came back with very valid reasons to fast. The issue was over tying said fast to Ramadan.

OK, well then let's clear up a few more things. The tone of this thread is nasty in places, regardless of what you say about 'balanced debate' etc etc. Several Muslims have come on here to say that they have been upset by some of what has been said, but you have countered this by implying that they are playing 'victims', and that we all have the right to say what we want in the name of free speech, which in turn implies that they should suck it up and be grateful. Well, in the spirit of free speech I am responding as your 'opponent' and saying that I think this attitude is intolerant.

The phobia on here has not been overt - more a general nasty, vitriolic tone to the whole thread which I don't think can be put down to people just feeling a bit cranky today. My point re Lent still stands. And the thread about the niqab-wearing icecream lady also falls into this category. Cactus's comment was particularly nasty and ignorant, which is why I used it as an example, but as other posters have pointed out there is a distinctly unpleasant trend for some pretty horrible threads on MN every Ramadan.

Islam is not a race - perhaps I'm wrong (and perhaps it's a bit of an anal point), but enlighten me?

As to the OP not explaining herself: she did further down the thread, but did not for quite a while and it would have helped if she had done earlier. In fact, suggesting that she might even be thought of as a 'pretentious twat' for fasting, without explaining why, was probably not a good idea. That said, many of the posters who called pretentious twat didn't explain why they had come to that conclusion themselves. Lazy, and obviously leads to misunderstandings (if that's what they were). And even after she'd explained her perfectly commendable motives, the tone of this thread just went downhill.

On the other hand, your response to me is quite reasonable and balanced and even though I disagree with you on the whole I think we may have managed to drag this thread back out of the gutter press territory that it was in grave danger of falling into [not passive-aggressive!].

Is this some sort of hope of weight loss? The Ramadan diet?

I think you'll find the general idea behind surviving it is getting your cals in big-time with large meals pre and post sunset. It's not the latest bikini-ready juice cleanse!

Kumiho what a patronising post

Oh no, back into the gutter we go...

xiaozhu

The tone of this thread is nasty in places, regardless of what you say about 'balanced debate' etc etc. Several Muslims have come on here to say that they have been upset by some of what has been said, but you have countered this by implying that they are playing 'victims', and that we all have the right to say what we want in the name of free speech, which in turn implies that they should suck it up and be grateful. Well, in the spirit of free speech I am responding as your 'opponent' and saying that I think this attitude is intolerant

Threads (any thread) can take a nasty turn indeed. Several Muslims have come on here to commend and support the OP indeed. But my counter argument has not been to say that they are playing the 'victim.' So I'd prefer that you asked what were my implications rather than put words into my mouth, or rather, interpret my words to your benefit. In light of that, I have no idea what you mean by anyone should "suck it up and be grateful" - grateful for what exactly?? And being abusive under the guise of free speech is often weeded out on MN, not least by other posters but definitely by HQ. You are welcome to see things as intolerant as am I to see them as the normal course of debate.

The phobia on here has not been overt - more a general nasty, vitriolic tone to the whole thread which I don't think can be put down to people just feeling a bit cranky today. My point re Lent still stands. And the thread about the niqab-wearing icecream lady also falls into this category. Cactus's comment was particularly nasty and ignorant, which is why I used it as an example, but as other posters have pointed out there is a distinctly unpleasant trend for some pretty horrible threads on MN every Ramadan

If you can point me directly to an Islamophobic post on this thread then I'll be happy to take back all my posts. But - in my opinion - your arguments come from a defensive position rather than an open willing-to-debate position.

Cactus' post was just that. A post. Not a determining factor nor was it an ignorant post. It was Cactus' opinion which he/she is very rightly welcome to, whether or not we agree or disagree with it.

Islam is not a race - perhaps I'm wrong (and perhaps it's a bit of an anal point), but enlighten me?

I didn't suggest Islam was a race. However, I did suggest that those who bulldozed into a thread to insult Islam or Muslims are racist. It's not about splitting hairs over what constitutes racism, but in my book, if anyone resents Islam or Muslims because of that very purpose makes them a racist. So please don't take cheap shots at me.

As you say, and I'd also agree:

"your response to me is quite reasonable and balanced and even though I disagree with you on the whole I think we may have managed to drag this thread back out of the gutter press territory that it was in grave danger of falling into [not passive-aggressive!]"

We don't need to be PA about this. This is a serious issue that affects the UK and presumably other countries. Being PA doesn't bring the discussion forward. So, far be it from me to attempt such futile behaviour.

I will defend your right to express your opinion and ideas. As I will others'. I may not always agree with them but it is still your opinion and I'll not shut it down. But I will counter them.

Well I guess it's not just is Muslims that can get defensive is it?

And here we have another shitty post that Xiaozhu is referring to by Kumihi along with cactus.

Sorry I think I've misread kumiho's post...

TeAmo, I wasn't taking a cheap shot at you, I was genuinely wondering if there's some official classification of Islamophobia as racism.Which is a bit anal on my part, is all.

I think, fundamentally we agree. You mention people who bulldoze the thread to make (implied) racist comments. This is who I'm aiming at, not those who've made reasonable, balanced comments.

However, we must agree to disagree about the general tone of this thread being nasty and unsupportive. It just is.

Pyjamas I'm not sure how to read kumiho's comment... I think it's intended as a joke.

Why was cactus post nasty? She gave her view on religion not one particular religion

TeAmo - would you pull the "in a democracy line" usually, or just on Muslims you feel are unfamiliar with the concept?

MN is frequently very hostile towards Muslims. That's not me "playing the victim", because I really wish it wasn't the case. Previously we've been told:
We shouldn't comment in threads about Islam/Muslims, because we are brainwashed anyway
That people are so rude to us on here to make up for not being able to be hostile to Muslims in real life
That there is no such thing as Muslims being attacked or abused for being Muslim in the UK, we are just lying to stifle free speech.
If we don't like it here, we should go back to where we came from, etc.

MN is frequently very hostile towards Muslims

No MN isn't.

Some people who post here are.

You cant tar an entire website with the same brush, because of posts from some individual people.

There are millions of monthly users, with all different views on everything.

And yet every time a thread about Muslims appears it becomes hostile. Every. single. Time.

There has not been a single thread in 7 yrs where someone hasn't been hostile towards us. Maybe not the collective 'MN' but it certainly says something that someone always has to have a dig, a pop, a sarky comment.

Yes people are entitle
To their opinions but I'm sorry us Muslims are also allowed to feeeel something about those comments without being labelled as loving to play the victim

Cactus you didn't just give an opinion. The underlying suggestion behind your innocuous 'Islam is a proselytising religion' was that the Muslims on this thread were encouraging the OP fasting as a for of attempting to convert her. You said of course the Muslims will be encouraging it as though we have some sort of collective hidden agenda. Well Muslims are not just one homogenous blob just like MN isn't and I can assure you I have no interest in converting anyone

There has not been a single thread in 7 yrs where someone hasn't been hostile towards us
and sometimes several people.PyjamasLlamas there ARE some people who are particularly looking for thread about Muslims to get their dig in, but there is a thread right now where the vast majority are defending Muslims' rights.