to fast during Ramadan even though I'm not a Muslim...

[MrsStrawberry]

Not Muslim, or even religious at all in general. Have many Muslim friends and whilst never tempted to take part before have recently been looking into it more and like the idea behind it... But don't want to mention it to anyone as I think I sound like a pretentious twat

[MistressMia]

There have been studies which have found that people who have religious beliefs are less likely to suffer from some mental health problems

There's also some evidence that religion causes brain atrophy.

And then there's the strong role that religion plays in psychotic disorders.

Muhammed heard voices in a cave. He claimed these were from God speaking through the angel Gabriel. Everyone declared him a prophet.

Anyone hallucinating and suffering from delusions now would rightly get referred to psychiatry.

[dominogocatgo]

Since when do we associate religions with ethics ? Half of them insist their adherents cut parts off their babies in order to appease their invisible friend. Not to mention the misogyny, animal abuse, slavery promotion etc.

[rogueantimatter]

She's wrong anyway. There have been studies which have found that people who have religious beliefs are less likely to suffer from some mental health problems.

[OliveCane]

Decisions, mistressmia is a well known bully on MN who turns up on every single thread related to Islam and Muslims. She is best ignored.

[rogueantimatter]

Living as ethically as possible is hard. Everyone needs "a source of encouragement". It's not an admission of weakness to recognise that. In fact it shows self-awareness. I'll take all the encouragement, support and advice I can get! I want to get into the habit of behaving ethically as my 'default setting,' that's much more likely to happen by listening to or being among other like-minded people who are prioritising their aim of being ethical over everything else. Some things take sustained, concentrated effort. If you want to light a fire, you won't manage it with a few minutes every day, but if you work at it over a period of time with the help of other people you're more likely. There's a lot of unhelpful voices out there. Have you read a newspaper or indeed a history book recently?

It's not organised religion that causes wars and other atrocities. The individuals who perpetuate them are not encouraged to be immoral by the genuine religious leaders. There have always been corrupt individuals within religious groups just like in any other area of life.

I don't ask, "What can this religion offer me?" Didn't you read my reasons for having sympathy with organised religions? My reason for going to the Buddhist centre, for wearing a cross (to remind me to have the courage of my convictions) for 'doing' Lent, for actively encouraging my children to be respectful of religions, is to live more ethically. That's not selfish.

And I'm not "perpetuating a false belief system". I'm an atheist. I don't pretend to be anything else.

[goodasitgets]

I'm pretty simplistic about it. Working nights at the minute, manager is fasting. I don't eat/drink in front of him and we don't have the usual pile of food that people bring in. Until he breaks his fast, then we get food out to share, make sure he drinks lots of water. He brings in lovely homemade food for us. It's a nice social feeling

[decisionsdecisions123]

MistressMia, are you this outspoken and downright rude about your beliefs on Islam and its followers in real life, especially with family members or does the internet just give you a platform to be brave?

[rogueantimatter]

Ooh you do know 'stuff' - you're a great person to chat with. (I love philosophical discussions - nobody at home will indulge me ).

You're wrong about the "view that starts with the self" though. I used to think that about the theistic religions actually - that they were intrinsically selfish; motivation for living ethically comes from knowing you're valued by an omnipotent being who has a plan for you and through that 'force' it will all come right in the end. External 'rules'.

I wonder if that's a western thing?

But their promotion of healthy living (avoiding excesses of alcohol, sex, careless relationships etc) ultimately benefits everyone. The whole community benefits from having healthy, mentally well individuals.

Moreover, I've only come to understand recently that you are best placed to practice forgiveness and offer support to other people if you're at peace with yourself. You will be less needy, less likely to succumb to destructive behaviours such as fighting, less jealous, greedy etc. It's only when you accept the unchanging aspects of your situation and don't feel the need to be competitive, desperate to be considered sexually attractive etc that you can genuinely be strong enough to act compassionately through compassion for your fellow human beings.

The religions you cited can provide this through belief in a loving, forgiving, omnipotent god. Buddhism does it through enabling and encouraging practices that foster self-awareness and acceptance of our connectedness to everything else (to put it crudely). The Buddhist meditations are sometimes focused on mindfulness of one's self, but as often as not, on developing one's default setting as 'loving kindness' towards all beings.

FWIW, my interest in religion, as a 'thing' and then Buddhism in particular came from my desire to find a source of encouragement to live more ethically. Living ethically usually results in being more at peace with yourself. 'Clear conscience' if you like. Pumping up the metta muscle (loving kindness).

My 'faith' is very simplistic. I now believe that actions have consequences. Even if only directly for oneself, the practice of being mindful of one's situation, which involves being aware that one shares a place and time with other human beings obviously) of having an awareness of my motivations - competitiveness, spiritual pride, desire for approval, whatever else; will have a positive effect on the people I interact with. In fact Buddhism discourages a view of oneself as one set being and promotes the ability to think and act without the constraints of identifying as anything.

Paganism, as far as my extremely limited understanding goes, promotes a healthy respect for our place in nature.

All this has a beneficial effect on the whole community; individuals happy to share, to collaborate with each other for a common good instead of pursuing individual interests.

Religion is all about living harmoniously with other people as far as I can see. IMO the religious leaders were excellent psychologists who understood that people who feel they aren't valued by anyone (including themselves) are more likely to behave in ways harmful to themselves and others, being destructive, violent etc. But also that there are difficulties for even the gentlest person in living in a community. They have provided a narrative for practices that lead to well-being. Self-discipline and restraint are practised through religious rites and rituals as far as I can see. Such as fasting during Ramadan. Will power is improved by exercising will power! Whether your reason is to be a good muslim or to develop your ability to be compassionate the results will probably be benficial. IMO.

I hope this is not offensive to muslim people though. Apologies if I'm being insensitive. I won't be fasting..... Easy for me to talk in the abstract....

[rogueantimatter]

But our increasingly secular society is less tolerant of people with physical 'imperfections', elderly people and anyone who presents as 'odd'.

I'm hopeful that theistic religions will change their views on gay people and women, CofE is moving in the right direction.

FWIW it's no more rational to be an atheist than anything else. We don't know how the universe began or what happens after we die. It's possible to be arrogantly scientistic and lacking any wisdom. Knowledge is not the same as understanding.

I went through a long phase of being annoyed by organised religion, probably because I hadn't yet developed enough wisdom to understand the importance of cultivating the ability to be forgiving and the need to live a balanced life and that being at peace with myself will enable me to live more ethically, benefitting everyone. Faith is partly a habit, IMO. I used to think you either had it or you didn't but now I think it can be cultivated, nurtured and encouraged to be strong like any other habit or muscle.

It's patronising of you to explain that my "religious friend is homophobic", if you don't mind me saying so. Of course she is, she believes that God's plan is for men and women to marry to create a stable family. Gay marriage 'undermines' that. I am not claiming to speak for muslims or members of any other religions. I don't share their beliefs, but I like to think I share most of their values. But my reading of Alain de Botton (atheist philosopher sympathetic to religions for anyone who doesn't know), interest in psychology and morality and my exposure to Christian and Buddhist scriptures have led me to the conclusion that the reasoning behind the narratives of the major religions is to promote peaceful, healthy co-existence with our fellow human beings.

I suspect you'd have more sympathy for organised religion if you had more in depth knowledge of religious scriptures.

Religious leaders are highly educated. They understand that some of the details of the scriptures are a function of the times they were written in. That's why they are modernised and re-interpreted from time to time.

People who have rejected religion are not intellectually superior to people who hold religious beliefs. (They might be naturally more optimistic)

Could you explain what you meant about "21st century, late capitalist view of religion"? I'm genuinely interested as I realise that I too am a product of my times.

[rogueantimatter]

People who describe themselves as having a 'faith' are less likely to have suffer from depression than people of no faith.

[rogueantimatter]

windchime no pain no gain!

[rogueantimatter]

Not much experience of being around religious Muslims, except for my next-door neighbour, who I don't know well. Very few jewish people here. Lots of experience of Christians. I used to believe in a Christian God. I have a Christian friend who has some homophobic beliefs. Apart from that I value her judgment; she is forgiving, kind, principled, fair (and highly educated and doing a very responsible job.) I feel lucky to have her as a friend. She is pleased that I've been going to a Buddhist centre recently btw.

I take your point about the raison d'etre of monotheistic religions as GOD. And his laws, but the effect of genuinely practising these religions is usually to the benefit of the whole community IMO. They are an antidote to the pressures of materialism, the over sexualisation of our society and the cult of the individual. IMO.

My impression is that the original religious leaders and the writers of the scriptures were basically ethical people, albeit products of the times they lived in, who understood the challenges of living in communities and taught practices which cultivate a healthy attitude. IMO the difficulty of not having a connection with any organised group or set of scriptures is that you will only listen to the morals you're already interested in.

Do you vote Cactus? I assume you don't agree with all the policies of any one party.

[windchime]

All I know is that I am working with doctors this week who have evil breath and the right arse.

[rogueantimatter]

I don't see that OP is doing any harm by fasting for the period of Ramadan. If it weren't Ramadan now, would she be fasting? I'd guess not. As far as I can see that's where the organised bit of organised religions does its work; the disciplines promote an ethical mindset as the default setting which is brought about by regularly praying/meditating/giving offerings/daily gratitudes etc. The supportive network of a like-minded community encourages ethical thinking and action.

I realise that some religious groups have some misogynistic and homophobic beliefs. Religious institutions tend to be conservative and behind the times. But no institution is perfect. Given time I hope that more and more organised religions will interpret their scriptures in a way that promotes equality.

FWIW I too have reservations about 'following' "some bloke in the 7th century, or a rich guy who supposedly thought he had cracked the secret of inner peace, or a guy who claimed to be the son of God etc. I'm an atheist FWIW. Btw Buddhism is a non-theistic religion. But it strikes me that they all have basically the same values: ie be compassionate to human beings, look after each other and yourself, live in a way that promotes peaceful co-existence. Don't be greedy, think about the reasons for the way you behave, remember that your actions have consequences. It seems like a good idea to use the insight of organised religions to live ethically.

I'm very interested in your view that 'cherry-picking' from organised religions is a "twisted, 21st-century late-capitalist view of religions". I'd like to think the Christian vicar (minister) delivering a sermon is glad that I hear it and try to take on his aim, even though I don't believe that I will sit at God's right hand as a result, that my Muslim neighbour feels valued and therefore in a (psychologically) good place to value her neighbours when I give her a present for Eid even though I don't celebrate it, that a Buddhist mitra is heartened at my unskilful attempts to develop a mindset of loving kindness to all human beings. But maybe I'm just being arrogant.

Thank goodness for organised religions - we need something to counter the endless tirade of commercialism and individualistic striving because we're worth it. Apparently we're all entitled to a marvellous life now. The use of words (in the public domain) denoting ethics or morals has decreased in the last thirty years. Arguably we need religions more than ever. How fantastic that in the 21st century we all have a greater knowledge of many religions; all with their underlying aim of promoting a peaceful, considerate, caring community.

[SunnyBaudelaire]

"Praying to God several times a day? "

Well yes this could be good for you, interestingly, studies have shown that religious Muslim men don't get bad backs as they stretch the spine every day.
Isnt that fascinating just by the by?

[rogueantimatter]

I don't know of any 'evidence' that fasting for Ramadan has an influence on behaviour all year round. I'd be surprised if it didn't go some way towards developing a mind set of being compassionate though. I don't know how you could study the effects.

I don't know if going 'over to a developing country' is the best way to affect positive change either though. Funding the people who live in developing countries to set-up infra- structure, educate etc is probably better in most cases. I'm sure you can fast and do practical things anyway.

Why did "some bloke" say to fast for Ramadan? Probably more than one reason. Religions are necessarily rooted in their time and locale. But human nature is timeless and universal. Dispense with the details for sure, but the underlying aims of (all that I know about) religions is to promote ethical living. It seems to me that rejecting religion per se but hoping for a fairer world is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[MistressMia]

Is there any evidence that muslims fasting for Ramadan does have any influence on moderating behaviour year round ?

Surely far more productive in helping the starving, poor etc would be to go over to a developing country and do something practical. Same with the Hajj pilgrimage. Nothing but a massive revenue raiser for Saudi.

It's nonsensical dogmatic adherence done just because some bloke in the 7th century said to it. Doesn't actually help anyone or achieve anything.

[rogueantimatter]

Here's my tuppence worth.

If it's good for Muslims; whether that be physically, psychologically or spiritually, it's probably good for all of us. Same with meditating, praying, having a day of rest etc. Religious leaders are usually excellent psychologists IMO.

IME religious organisations usually promote the aim of living in a way that is good for everyone. What we wish for ourselves we should wish for everybody. So I'd hope that anyone from any religion would be happy for anyone to take on their religious practices if done for worthwhile reasons.

OP's reasons seem very worthwhile to me.

There's a huge difference between knowing that you're fortunate enough to have plenty to eat (or whatever else you're fortunate to 'have') and being deeply mindful of it to the extent that it influences your behaviour to be more ethical all year round.

I don't see why you can't follow various religious practices if you think they will help you to be healthier, at peace with yourself and more ethical; that's their purpose.

[ImpishElf]

Good luck MrsStrawberry, wish you all the best!

[TeAmoReally]

CactusAnnie I very, very rarely get to use the term ad hominems on here or in RL. Well played sir, well played.