to fast during Ramadan even though I'm not a Muslim...

[MrsStrawberry]

Not Muslim, or even religious at all in general. Have many Muslim friends and whilst never tempted to take part before have recently been looking into it more and like the idea behind it... But don't want to mention it to anyone as I think I sound like a pretentious twat

[rogueantimatter]

Ooh you do know 'stuff' - you're a great person to chat with. (I love philosophical discussions - nobody at home will indulge me ).

You're wrong about the "view that starts with the self" though. I used to think that about the theistic religions actually - that they were intrinsically selfish; motivation for living ethically comes from knowing you're valued by an omnipotent being who has a plan for you and through that 'force' it will all come right in the end. External 'rules'.

I wonder if that's a western thing?

But their promotion of healthy living (avoiding excesses of alcohol, sex, careless relationships etc) ultimately benefits everyone. The whole community benefits from having healthy, mentally well individuals.

Moreover, I've only come to understand recently that you are best placed to practice forgiveness and offer support to other people if you're at peace with yourself. You will be less needy, less likely to succumb to destructive behaviours such as fighting, less jealous, greedy etc. It's only when you accept the unchanging aspects of your situation and don't feel the need to be competitive, desperate to be considered sexually attractive etc that you can genuinely be strong enough to act compassionately through compassion for your fellow human beings.

The religions you cited can provide this through belief in a loving, forgiving, omnipotent god. Buddhism does it through enabling and encouraging practices that foster self-awareness and acceptance of our connectedness to everything else (to put it crudely). The Buddhist meditations are sometimes focused on mindfulness of one's self, but as often as not, on developing one's default setting as 'loving kindness' towards all beings.

FWIW, my interest in religion, as a 'thing' and then Buddhism in particular came from my desire to find a source of encouragement to live more ethically. Living ethically usually results in being more at peace with yourself. 'Clear conscience' if you like. Pumping up the metta muscle (loving kindness).

My 'faith' is very simplistic. I now believe that actions have consequences. Even if only directly for oneself, the practice of being mindful of one's situation, which involves being aware that one shares a place and time with other human beings obviously) of having an awareness of my motivations - competitiveness, spiritual pride, desire for approval, whatever else; will have a positive effect on the people I interact with. In fact Buddhism discourages a view of oneself as one set being and promotes the ability to think and act without the constraints of identifying as anything.

Paganism, as far as my extremely limited understanding goes, promotes a healthy respect for our place in nature.

All this has a beneficial effect on the whole community; individuals happy to share, to collaborate with each other for a common good instead of pursuing individual interests.

Religion is all about living harmoniously with other people as far as I can see. IMO the religious leaders were excellent psychologists who understood that people who feel they aren't valued by anyone (including themselves) are more likely to behave in ways harmful to themselves and others, being destructive, violent etc. But also that there are difficulties for even the gentlest person in living in a community. They have provided a narrative for practices that lead to well-being. Self-discipline and restraint are practised through religious rites and rituals as far as I can see. Such as fasting during Ramadan. Will power is improved by exercising will power! Whether your reason is to be a good muslim or to develop your ability to be compassionate the results will probably be benficial. IMO.

I hope this is not offensive to muslim people though. Apologies if I'm being insensitive. I won't be fasting..... Easy for me to talk in the abstract....

[decisionsdecisions123]

MistressMia, are you this outspoken and downright rude about your beliefs on Islam and its followers in real life, especially with family members or does the internet just give you a platform to be brave?

[goodasitgets]

I'm pretty simplistic about it. Working nights at the minute, manager is fasting. I don't eat/drink in front of him and we don't have the usual pile of food that people bring in. Until he breaks his fast, then we get food out to share, make sure he drinks lots of water. He brings in lovely homemade food for us. It's a nice social feeling

[rogueantimatter]

Living as ethically as possible is hard. Everyone needs "a source of encouragement". It's not an admission of weakness to recognise that. In fact it shows self-awareness. I'll take all the encouragement, support and advice I can get! I want to get into the habit of behaving ethically as my 'default setting,' that's much more likely to happen by listening to or being among other like-minded people who are prioritising their aim of being ethical over everything else. Some things take sustained, concentrated effort. If you want to light a fire, you won't manage it with a few minutes every day, but if you work at it over a period of time with the help of other people you're more likely. There's a lot of unhelpful voices out there. Have you read a newspaper or indeed a history book recently?

It's not organised religion that causes wars and other atrocities. The individuals who perpetuate them are not encouraged to be immoral by the genuine religious leaders. There have always been corrupt individuals within religious groups just like in any other area of life.

I don't ask, "What can this religion offer me?" Didn't you read my reasons for having sympathy with organised religions? My reason for going to the Buddhist centre, for wearing a cross (to remind me to have the courage of my convictions) for 'doing' Lent, for actively encouraging my children to be respectful of religions, is to live more ethically. That's not selfish.

And I'm not "perpetuating a false belief system". I'm an atheist. I don't pretend to be anything else.

[OliveCane]

Decisions, mistressmia is a well known bully on MN who turns up on every single thread related to Islam and Muslims. She is best ignored.

[rogueantimatter]

She's wrong anyway. There have been studies which have found that people who have religious beliefs are less likely to suffer from some mental health problems.

[dominogocatgo]

Since when do we associate religions with ethics ? Half of them insist their adherents cut parts off their babies in order to appease their invisible friend. Not to mention the misogyny, animal abuse, slavery promotion etc.

[MistressMia]

There have been studies which have found that people who have religious beliefs are less likely to suffer from some mental health problems

There's also some evidence that religion causes brain atrophy.

And then there's the strong role that religion plays in psychotic disorders.

Muhammed heard voices in a cave. He claimed these were from God speaking through the angel Gabriel. Everyone declared him a prophet.

Anyone hallucinating and suffering from delusions now would rightly get referred to psychiatry.