To be irritated by Caitlyn Jenner (but not for the reason you imagine)?

[NotYouNaanBread]

This is NOT a thread about transgender. Obviously it is a thread about a transgendered woman, but I think that the trans aspect is secondary.

Caitlyn Jenner is extremely rich (worth over 100m) and famous in her own right, quite removed from the KUWTK thing. She is supported by a massive and powerful media machine with PR agencies and media advisers pouring out of her ears. I do not think that she is shining beacon of trans bravery. She will never be ashamed, abused or humiliated by people around her in her transition, instead she has the wordwide media cooing over her. I don't think that's a whole lot of inspiration to a working class person struggling with their gender in Detroit or Coventry.

BUT, nothing that I have read has addressed the fact there there was a man called Bruce Jenner who deceived no fewer than 3 wives and 6 children over his many years, and who was married to Kris Jenner for 20 years before saying "Bruce Jenner doesn't exist any more. And I'm making a TV show to celebrate this. The kids are going to be in it too." I can't even begin to imagine how I would feel if my husband of 20 years said this to me, and then used the media career that I had built up (whether we "approve" of Kris and KUWTK is neither here nor there) to launch a TV show to go into it in detail, and drag all of his many children into it. It's so unbelievably self-centred.

I have no difficulty with the transgendered aspect. But I have a lot of difficulty with the completely uncritical response to the fact that he knew for several decades that this was who he really was, and STILL kept on lying to the women around him, with incredibly hurtful consequences, especially to Kris and the youngest 2 girls.

dons feminist hat I think that she is still fundamentally perceived as a man - a man in transition, but still a man - and that she is being accorded male privilege in her choice (rich, white, male privilege, no less). Society tends to praise/defend the man and blame the woman in, well, most situations, and it seems that Caitlyn Jenner is benefitting from this even while she is ostensibly rejecting.

Yes, this is more of a rant than an IABU, especially about the injustice to Kris Jenner, but I would love to know if I'm on my own with the male privilege bit.

Sorry for the crazy long post.

But I have a lot of difficulty with the completely uncritical response to the fact that he knew for several decades that this was who he really was, and STILL kept on lying to the women around him

Oh FFS.

How about some sympathy the fact that he was "forced" to live a lie because of society's expectations?

I don't think he was forced to get married three times and have six children, though, surely? He also very much opted in to a public life.

Ooh I dunno - you're making damn good points, but as someone else (Jon Stewart?) pointed out, she's now experiencing the full scrutiny of the world re how she looks. Her makeup, her clothes, her figure - all fair game. That's not male priviledge, that's experiencing the objectification of women. No-one really cared what Bruce Jenner looked like.

And re the deceit - I can see your point, but how easy would it have been to transgender in, say, the 80s? Did she have any choice but to keep going and hoping she'd change and suddenly be happy with her masculinity?

You don't know how much his wives knew though? You're only going off what you've read online or in the papers.
I honestly think there are better things to get worked up over, let them deal with it themselves.

Sorry, I said his in my post as was referring to when she was a he.

Can't get my knickers in a twist over it I'm afraid.

Money.
everything is to do with money when it comes to them.

YANBU. This pic sums up how I felt when the whole circus was in full swing (and not just the internet but the actual, supposedly-serious press fgs).

I think Kris Jenner would agree with you, I read that she's not happy, for the reasons you've said.

It must be hard for her to deal with, it being so public. But then, she's courted the media herself so I'm not sure if she has a great deal of room for complaint.

I agree with the male privilege thing too. Bruce benefited from it all his life and I do think Caitlyn is still benefiting from the history of it.

It is good that trans is becoming more accepted though.

Can the bloody radfems not just shut up for ten minutes and let Caitlyn have her moment without using the whole thing as an excuse to whinge about poor "real" women? It's embarrassing.

Pisses me off. Not a fan of the Kardashians, but give respect where it's due.

So, in one breath, you complain that because of vast wealth, Caitlyn "will never be ashamed, abused or humiliated by people around her in her transition" (because rich people are never judgemental snobs, oh no.)

Then you describe how Bruce led a life being ashamed and tying to conform to "normality" and, hence, living a lie.

If you can't see the the problem with that lack of application of simple logic, then I despair.

I cannot imagine what it must have been like decades ago for trans people to be honest about their feelings. It is still very difficult now isnt it? So 20 odd years ago? Not sure it would have been so easy to just say it and start living as a woman. It's possible it took those 20 years for Bruce to come to accept that he was Caitlyn himself. Perhaps he fought it inwardly and tried to repress it? Perhaps getting married was part of that?

I really dont think we can judge how he handled a very difficult situation that began in a different time.

Hassled I did think that at first, about what Jon Stewart said, but then she actively chose to make her debut in a basque. It's definitely unacceptable to judge Angela Merkel or Hillary Clinton, two women also in their sixties, on the basis of their sexual attractiveness (although people still, extraordinarily, do), but then when is the last time Merkel donned a corset for the cover of The Economist? If people are judging Caitlyn Jenner on her physical sexiness as a woman, then it is because she very explicitly asked them to.

I don't think he was forced to get married three times and have six children, though, surely? He also very much opted in to a public life.

You really have no idea what either living in denial or having to hide something is like do you? It's no different from gay men being forced to create a heterosexual life for themselves in the past.

I couldn't give a stuff about the Jenner families. I've never followed anything they've done. I simply find some of the opinions that have been expressed on MN over the last few weeks offensive. Imagine making those comments about someone's sexuality.

The opinions spouted here should make it clear why many transgender people feel the need to hide how they feel.

I agree with you OP.

Thank you for not flaming me to kingdom come. There were points made above that I hadn't really considered.

(I don't think that discussing the extent of male privilege, especially for rich, white men makes me a radfem though!)

But Kris Jenner knew and thought it was 'a phase'...his kids knew a long while before having seen him doing his thing dressed up early in the morning when he thought no-one was around. He didnt know he had been seen but they told each other.

But yes i wonder why Kris still thought marriage etc was a good idea, perhaps he downplayed it as previous posters have said, finding it hard to accept himself. 100million tho? Seriously??? All he has done for years is motivational speaking? Or am i missing something? He was very vocal that Kris controlled the money she gets as 'momager' , 12 per cent was mentioned at one point by the younger sister.

he's on IMDB as a she now. i just find it dead odd, sorry to disagree with the rest of the world but a woman he ain't. and i saw him in can't stop the music

I try to imagine the pressure he was under as an Olympic gold winning male decathlete, all the hero worship and idolisation that came along with it. It would have made 'confessing' to the way he was feeling even harder than it may be for other, non-famous men living a regular married with 2 kids life.

There are many many gay men living 'straight' lives, and I imagine many trans people who have tried to live a 'normal' life too/

To start off my post I will state that I have no issue with trans people (I probably interact with more than most on here) and have some very good trans friends who I don't really think of as trans-people just as people.

3 years ago my world was blown apart.
My husband of 12 years broke down one evening and told me he was transgender.
Unlike the Jenners we are normal working people without the privileges money and fame bring.
We are still together......Why?
Love?, fear? commitment? responsibility?worry? Loyalty?
My dream was the classic nice house 2.4 kids. Nothing fancy.
I married the most wonderful man I have ever met. When he told me he no longer wanted to be that person it was like a part of me and a part of him died. It was certainly the end of our physical relationship as he believes that using his penis for sex is untrue to his feminine self.
In public and often at home he still dresses male, albeit with shaved legs and painted toenails.
He was very excited about shopping to begin with and I actively helped him to find female clothes to flatter. Helped with make-up,wigs etc.
As his confidence grew he began shopping more mostly designer items which we could not afford. Our savings soon ran out!
We are now stuck between a rock and a hard place. I could not remain married if transition/hormone therapy is the way forward.(I would fully support as a friend)
He does not want to divorce so denies herself what SHE really wants.
Life is Shit.
I live with a person I love and hate/resent in equal measure.
She is lovely and we have enjoyed evenings out,shopping and cocktails together.
But she is not the man I adored.
I miss him terribly. So much I often cry.
I am trapped.

can't believe people spend time worrying about these so called boring people and what they are doing, who gives a toss ?

The gender pronouns may be mixed but this is not intended to be offensive.
It makes sense in my head.