To be irritated by Caitlyn Jenner (but not for the reason you imagine)?

[NotYouNaanBread]

This is NOT a thread about transgender. Obviously it is a thread about a transgendered woman, but I think that the trans aspect is secondary.

Caitlyn Jenner is extremely rich (worth over 100m) and famous in her own right, quite removed from the KUWTK thing. She is supported by a massive and powerful media machine with PR agencies and media advisers pouring out of her ears. I do not think that she is shining beacon of trans bravery. She will never be ashamed, abused or humiliated by people around her in her transition, instead she has the wordwide media cooing over her. I don't think that's a whole lot of inspiration to a working class person struggling with their gender in Detroit or Coventry.

BUT, nothing that I have read has addressed the fact there there was a man called Bruce Jenner who deceived no fewer than 3 wives and 6 children over his many years, and who was married to Kris Jenner for 20 years before saying "Bruce Jenner doesn't exist any more. And I'm making a TV show to celebrate this. The kids are going to be in it too." I can't even begin to imagine how I would feel if my husband of 20 years said this to me, and then used the media career that I had built up (whether we "approve" of Kris and KUWTK is neither here nor there) to launch a TV show to go into it in detail, and drag all of his many children into it. It's so unbelievably self-centred.

I have no difficulty with the transgendered aspect. But I have a lot of difficulty with the completely uncritical response to the fact that he knew for several decades that this was who he really was, and STILL kept on lying to the women around him, with incredibly hurtful consequences, especially to Kris and the youngest 2 girls.

dons feminist hat I think that she is still fundamentally perceived as a man - a man in transition, but still a man - and that she is being accorded male privilege in her choice (rich, white, male privilege, no less). Society tends to praise/defend the man and blame the woman in, well, most situations, and it seems that Caitlyn Jenner is benefitting from this even while she is ostensibly rejecting.

Yes, this is more of a rant than an IABU, especially about the injustice to Kris Jenner, but I would love to know if I'm on my own with the male privilege bit.

Sorry for the crazy long post.

My goodness, Duchess, that sounds like a hell, missing someone while they are right there, torn between the person they were and the person they want to be. I hope you resolve something at some point.

Duchess you poor love. Can only imagine how hard this is for you

Webb Caitlyn was Bruce he wanted the last two children not Kris.

So sorry duchess

Duchess that is a very difficult situation.

I know divorce isnt easy, but just because your DH doesn't want it, is there anything stopping you from initiating it?

It may force your DH to become the person he wants to be?

Duchess what about what you want?
I can't imagine living the way you are even for a day. sounds horrendous for you.
Is it really the financial aspect that is keeping you both living together?
Do you have DC ?

We have no DC sadly.
We really are best friends. In many ways he hasn't changed. We still like the same jokes,tv shows,restaurants.....
Money is a major issue.
His early spending habits, my 2 months off work unpaid when I found out and the fact he no longer has a regular income all contribute.
Sometimes I see a glimmer of my husband.
He still dresses male most of the time but has a very different sense of style, skinny jeans and fitted t-shirts.
His eyebrows are plucked to perfection and he has grown his hair considerably.
I want my husband back, I know its never going to happen. But I can't quite let go.

I agree with you that she has tons of money and is cushioned from a lot by that. (Though that's true for many people in other situations too – such as when they have a disabled child)

But it's actually very common for transgender – and gay – people to be married with a family before coming to terms with themselves and what they really want. If you think about it that makes sense, if you are struggling with an identity and trying to deny or suppress it (because it's unacceptable to your family or society) then insisting you are straight/cis (sorry I am not up with the terms people prefer so apologise if I offend) is a good way to do it. Well not "good" for their partner but certainly understandable. It puts rumours to rest, satisfies conservative parents, etc. Maybe people want children and are scared by a future where that would be difficult. And so on.

It does lead to a lot of upset for their partner as Duchess has described, though some do end up as good friends. I'm hardly following the story closely and even I've definitely heard about Kris Jenner making her upset about it quite clear for the exact reasons you say.

I wonder why his marriages failed? Could that be because he knew, in his heart that it wasn't what he wanted?

Plenty of Trans & for that matter, gay men marry & have kids before they feel confident enough to be who they really are. The are not purposefully deceiving anyone.

Many men married to 'prove' to themselves that they weren't gay, because they grew up around homophobia so strong that they would be abandoned if they admitted they were.

This is quite possibly very true for trans people too.

And the end of that day, op...Kris & some (if not all, not 100% sure tbh, I don't follow them) SUPPORT him. If there is hurt to be felt, injustice to be dealt with, it is their place & their place alone to deal with that, as they need to.

Pretty sure the K's aren't really bothered what we all think anyway!

"How about some sympathy the fact that he was "forced" to live a lie because of society's expectations?"

No he was not forced to live a lie. There have been people who identify as Trans around for many years. And he was not forced to marry three times and have kids. I have much more sympathy for his wives and kids.

CatPerson - I have never met a lesbian or gay man who has been married 3 times, never mind had 6 kids. A minority of lesbian and gay men have been married once, and realise their mistake.

But I think that's partly because there has been a lot more progress with acceptance of homosexuality recently, and for transgender people it's a lot further behind. Far fewer gay people do it now, because they are far less likely to feel that pressure to when they're younger.

I don't know why he married three times, and I'm not saying he was forced to.

CR will never be a woman. He is not female. He comes across as a nasty deceitful piece of work who can afford to live out some bizarre fantasy. He gives me the creeps.

Who is CR?

I think anyone who announces they feel a different gender to the one they were born as biologically kind of has the final say on that. You can't decide from the outside that that's not the case because you don't like their style.

Of course some people also happen to be publicity-seeking and rich, but it doesn't mean they're not genuine about their gender. How could you know?

CJ not C R, sorry.

The angle in OP making gender identity into a political statement puts me off ever wanting to be called 'feminist'.

Being transgender seems to me like a royal PITA. I'm not gonna begrudge in principle someone who made a lot of mistakes along the way before they could accept it in selves.

I'm a little uncomfortable that the assumption that when still Bruce, he didn't want a commited relationship with a woman and DCs. Bruce has become Caitlyn, there's no suggestion that Caitlyn isn't sexually attracted to woman or that as Caitlyn, Jenner no longer wants a committed relationship with a woman. There's no suggestion that Caitlyn doesn't want to be a parent to those children.

The lie was the extend to which the wearing of female clothing wasn't just cross dressing now and then but wanting to be a woman full time, but that might well be something that's only really occured to Jenner has she's got older. (One might argue at at point when Bruce no longer had anything to lose by transitioning, already a pensioner so career over, already marriage the to Kris had broken down, already her children had grown up)

It's not comparable directly with gay people having straight relationships as a cover, it's not a given that even if Bruce had become Caitlyn earlier she wouldn't still have wanted to be with those woman. Now, there's a good chance those wives would not have wanted to be in a relationship with Caitlyn, but that doesn't mean when Bruce married those woman, he didn't love them, was sexually attracted to them or wanted to make those relationships work. Nor does it mean that Bruce didn't try his best to be the best father he could be, even if he didn't want to be Bruce. There's also a good chance that at the time he believed being a good father involved conforming to what a straight man is.

You're absolutely right Dinosaurs. There are many ways in which Bruce's relationships with women could have been valid and genuine.

I'm sorry I implied they were just cover-ups – your post has made me rethink that. I do think one of the really good things about the publicity around all this is it making people think about it and have these conversations.

My DH still wants a relationship with me. It's just that he views himself as a lesbian female.
I, however, am sexually attracted to men.
Here lies a large part of the problem.
To him nothing about our relationship would change.
He also believes that if you love a person that a change of gender should not matter as the person is still the same.
I can in some ways understand this but on a personal level it's men not women I am attracted to.

Caitlyns feelings for these women may be genuine. We will never really know.

morage So because you know people who married once, had kids & then realised their mistake, that is how every gay/trans person should be?

We have no idea why he did what he did, perhaps his family were bigots & he thought that it was his only choice. Perhaps he was denying it to himself.

I don't think anyone has said that his ex wives & children don't deserve sympathy, but at the same time, I don't think he deserved condemnation for how he lived his life, because there but for the Grace of God.

Good post, Dinosaurs.

Yabu because we don't know the details. The women may have been aware he likes to cross dress, before he made the decision to live as a woman. She may still want to be in relationships with women, that part may have been the truth. There has been no suggestion she no longer wants to be a parent.

You are annoyed because of the hurt caused to other people, when you don't in fact know anything about that.

I agree OP, it's narcissism and male privilege writ large.

Duchess think of your own needs and feelings, take care

differentnameforthis - It was said above that Jenner's behaviour is common amongst gay and lesbian people. That is not true.

That must be very tough Duchess.

Caitlyn irritates me because she fucked off two of her kids after separating from their mother. Just didn't bother being part of their lives. That is not something I find excusable. And for those asking why Kris thought marriage was a good idea when she knew Caitlyn was trans, really? Do you not think she might just have loved her anyway?

YANBU IMO.

What depresses me is the fact that this got a huge amount of media coverage. The VF pic was even on Evan Davies' news programme!

He must be extremely single-minded to have won an Olympic gold medal. Now he's going to a huge amount of effort to change his appearance. This guy does not appear to be at peace with himself. What is there to celebrate?

FWIW - and this is just my personal taste - I don't think he looks attractive either as a man or a woman. I think he looks odd.

Something that's not mentioned enough in the debate about trans people in general and Caitlyn Jenner in particular, IMO is the fact that he appears to be a victim of our oversexualised society - where people are judged, as another poster are said, on their sexual attractiveness even in their old age. It's sad that it's so important to him to appear sexually attractive that he will pose like this IMO. He's a father. Who wants to see their father decked out in their undies? Why wouldn't he rather be doing something else with his time?

If anyone is questioning my assertion that our society is over-sexualised (presumably to further commercial interests served by mass consumption of products designed to make us look younger and/or shinier) then think of the last time someone asked for reassurance that they look 'okay' and you admitted that they don't look okay. It's now taboo to admit that you or anyone else is plain looking.