To think there are a lot of misconceptions about terminating a pregnancy

[fiveacres]

Obviously, about abortion, which is a contentious issue for some.

I am approaching the third due date of the pregnancy I terminated in the autumn of 2011 at 9 weeks.

I was a very pious sort once, who believed that abortions were morally wrong. i admit that freely. I still do feel that the best option is not to be in that position in the first place.

However, although I do sometimes think about it, I don't regret it. I've been pregnant twice since so it hasn't affected my fertility.

I paid privately. I did not have any counselling - I was undecided when I went for the initial appointment but I have to say it was very much 'assumed' that I wanted to terminate. The record of the abortion is not in my medical file.

You don't have to give a reason, although they did press me to have the implant, which I refused. They did do a scan, which was a bit upsetting.

It did not hurt. I was warned I would bleed a lot but I didn't. My periods came back in 6 weeks.

You are in a room with a LOT of other women after the procedure, which is upsetting.

Other than that, I felt good after having it done, relieved, happy, mainly relieved.

I do have the odd flash of guilt. I wouldn't do it again.

But, I was reading another thread and it crossed my mind a lot of people do not really seem to know what having a termination is like. My experience may be typical or it may not be, I don't know, but it would be interesting to see what the experiences of others are to try to dispel or to address some of the myths that surround this difficult but sometimes necessary issue.

"I'm spending a large part of my life trying to get the same for my country, and nothing anyone can say will make me anything but proud to do so."

Well said. I haven't had time to do much more than donate money to orgs/go on marches/write to TDs in the last few years, I'm really pleased there are people like you doing such good work.

needsAsock - but that's where people weigh up woman's choice vs right to life and come down on the side of life.

Fei, no one is saying they have to raise the child.

Jorah, because it's a life and someone has to defend it when it can't defend itself.

"The societies that don't have abortion rights tend to be those that also don't support pregnancy/maternity rights or womens rights in general. They don't have strong welfare systems, they don't have the supports in place. They do have much higher maternal and infant death rates, and lower life expectancy, on the whole."

Eh? Ireland doesn't fit into that description.

Also worth noting that many other countries where abortion is illegal also make contraception illegal - something that I think should be addressed before people start focussing all their outrage on the lack of abortion. Prevention rather than 'cure' and all that.

bookworm I'm not claiming to be perfect. How odd. I'm very sorry to hear about your baby . I don't think you should assume that every pro-life person would change their mind though - as discussed upthread.

No, Ireland doesn't exactly fit into that description. Hence the need for the clear qualifier, "on the whole".

Also worth noting that many other countries where abortion is illegal also make contraception illegal - something that I think should be addressed before people start focussing all their outrage on the lack of abortion. Prevention rather than 'cure' and all that

It's not an either/or problem. Access to contraception and access to abortion are both necessary. Prevention or cure is not mutually exclusive. You can try and stop people smoking, but that doesn't rule out treating their lung cancer, or vice versa.

"Eh? Ireland doesn't fit into that description."

She said "tend to be" - Ireland is very much the "odd man out".

And I don't think, as I said to you on another thread, Ireland is actually preventing abortion. What we're doing is sticking our head in the sand and pretending that if it happens in England or Holland or in private with abortion pills, it isn't happening. No abortions here, no sirree. Let's just ignore all those people getting on planes and ferries, shall we? The only thing we're doing is making abortion more expensive, more risky, more stressful, and later because women have to save and organize for their trip - often making the difference between an early medical abortion and a later surgical one.

I am absolutely positive that if we didn't have the "escape valve" of England and other European countries (plus pills online), there would be backstreet abortions in Ireland again and women would die (if it's not happening already for migrant/poorer women). I also think, sadly, that the fact that women aren't actually dying in large numbers from backstreet abortions allows politicians to ignore the issue and anti-choicers like you to hold Ireland up as a "pro-life beacon".

"Also worth noting that many other countries where abortion is illegal also make contraception illegal - something that I think should be addressed before people start focussing all their outrage on the lack of abortion rights"

Why do you think people are only capable of being outraged about one thing at a time?

An Irish solution to an Irish problem, Leedy. Pretend it isn't happening because we mostly ship it over the water. The denial is sickening, and I agree with all your points.
LAbour have made repeal of the 8th amendment an election promise. I know how I'll be voting next time

"Fei, no one is saying they have to raise the child."

But you are saying they should go through the entirety of pregnancy and give birth, with all the attendant risks. WHEN THEY DON'T WANT TO. Also if a woman decides to give her baby up for adoption, fair play to her, but it's not just as easy as "hand over the baby and get on with your life": you'll have gone through childbirth, you could be a hormonal, lactating mess, and (like pregnancy, childbirth, and abortion) the process can have mental health consequences.

I'm genuinely beginning to wonder, bumbley, if you've ever been pregnant and given birth yourself.

"Pretend it isn't happening because we mostly ship it over the water. "

Absolutely. The sequel to "pretend women having children out of wedlock isn't happening because we lock them up in institutions". It's the same absolutely deluded illusion of "Holy Catholic Ireland" being maintained in the face of, y'know, actual reality.

Winter, not a great analogy seeing as smoking isn't the only thing that causes lung cancer. Stopping people smoking would greatly reduce the likelihood of developing lung cancer though. Similarly, introducing contraception in those countries would greatly reduce the 'need' for abortion.

Leedy, not everyone is pro-life for religious reasons.

It is a good analogy, because while stopping people smoking would reduce the need to treat lung cancer, people would still get lung cancer. And some people will still smoke anyway, no matter what.
So if you only tried to prevent lung cancer and refused to cure it, you'd be punishing people for getting cancer. Just like refusing women access to abortion punishes them for getting pregnant.

Your answer to no contraception and no abortion is to give them just contraception. Youre only addressing half of the issue but pretending it will fix all of it.

Have I said 'all' anywhere?

We all know what you said. Aren't you tired of the "noooo, I never said that thing I definitely said, don't challenge it" schtick? It's not fooling anyone, and it ain't cute.

And there you go getting defensive against when some points out that you've misrepresented what they've said. (note my lack of stropping and swearing)

I said this:

"introducing contraception in those countries would greatly reduce the 'need' for abortion"

and you said:

"pretending it will fix all of it"

Have I missed where bumbleymummy said what's she's doing to "fix society"?

Don't forget as well that contraception isn't suitable for all women either. There are many couples successfully using the rhythm method, persona monitors, withdrawal, etc. because other forms of contraception don't suit them. I can't take hormonal contraception, many women choose not to use hormonal contraception, and condoms irritate me so we use a combination of tracking my cycle and withdrawal. If this ever failed and I got pregnant, depending on our situation at the time I would quite probably have an abortion.

I think you're mistaking offensive with defensive. I'm only responding to you so your points dont' go unchallenged and to help anyone reading to get the proper story and not just your minority, skewed, viewpoint.

Ok, so to be clear, you did not state that giving access to contraception would totally get rid of the need for abortion. My bad. You just said that those who still wanted/needed abortions even if they had access to contraception shouldn't be able to get them?
IS that better?

"You just said that those who still wanted/needed abortions even if they had access to contraception shouldn't be able to get them?
IS that better?"

ie Do you think the current legal situation in Ireland is ideal? If not, why not?

"Leedy, not everyone is pro-life for religious reasons."

No, but the eighth amendment here was very much the brainchild of the Catholic right, and many of the organizations supporting it today are religious.

Unless you think this lot don't seem very religious: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-Life_Amendment_Campaign_(PLAC)

As a teenager I found out my mother wanted to have me terminated, but was persuaded not to at the very last minute.

It wasn't traumatic to find out or anything, I was just a bit meh, but I am definitely a person, and I would (now I am able to speak for myself) consider something where a person had deliberately made me, personally, dead, to be a bad thing. Murder even.

I tend to stay quiet when people discuss the issue because it's a big thing for a person to wrestle with, and I feel it's not my place to interfere and introduce more trouble to their troubles. Perhaps I should be saying something, I don't know.

Blooming, you're as entitled as anyone else to an opinion, and to talk about it. I kinda get where you are coming from to a lesser extent: my father told me he never wanted children, and was very unhappy to find out he had been wrongly told he was infertile, as he would have been more careful had he known. Which is charming to find out that your parent would have liked you not to have been born.
But had you not been born, you wouldn't be here to think about it at all, so its kind of moot?
Anyway, I'd rather all children were wanted and cherished from the day they were born, which means women need to be able to not have children they don't want.
There is nothing to say we all need to be comfortable with the realities of that. But aren't the realities much worse when people can't make that choice?

"I'm only responding to you so your points dont' go unchallenged"

Except you're responding to points I haven't made. See my previous post.

"You just said that those who still wanted/needed abortions even if they had access to contraception shouldn't be able to get them?"

Nope. Try again.

What I've actually said:

'many other countries where abortion is illegal also make contraception illegal - something that I think should be addressed before people start focussing all their outrage on the lack of abortion'

and

"introducing contraception in those countries would greatly reduce the 'need' for abortion"

"I'd rather all children were wanted and cherished from the day they were born, which means women need to be able to not have children they don't want."

That assumes that only a woman can 'want and cherish' her own child rather than, as someone pointed out earlier, the father wanting and cherishing his child or someone else wanting and cherishing the child.

Have been lurking on this thread since it started.

Thank you to everyone for sharing their stories, it can't have been easy for some.

I am the poster George was referring to upthread and I would like to say that I was hurt and offended by what was said to me while I was pregnant last year with my daughter who had a condition that was incompatible with life. I could have hidden the thread however the hurt and offense I felt was nothing I couldn't handle. Hell, it is those views and opionions which are prevalent in NI and are behind the law which meant I was denied a termination in the first place.

What I find most distressing is the lack of compassion. And no matter what way it is framed it is not showing equal compassion to the foetus and the host. The foetus is favoured over and above even if they have no chance of surviving at all, as was the case with my dd. But do pro-life campaigners care about the women in this circumstance? Do they hell. If they had even an ounce of compassion they would never dream of subjecting a woman to enduring a doomed pregnancy where the ending would either be a still birth or watching the baby suffocate in your arms. A pregnancy with complications that did not threaten the life of the mother, but meant she was on morphine for the last 4 weeks just to make it through the day.

But as long as we do right by the foetus, eh?

No, it really doesn't assume any such thing. It assumes if she doesn't want to have it, whether any one else does is immaterial. I see you neatly ignored Leedy's direct question....will we try again?

Do you think the current legal situation in Ireland is ideal? If not, why not?

An actual answer this time, if you could oblige?

I think that the person who enjoys stirring things should be ignored, as has been suggested many pages ago.

bloomin I am in the same situation as you, though my very troubled biological mother went on to terminate the several pregnancies after me, until she got married. It's never bothered me either.

I do remember holding her when she sobbed and sobbed and sobbed and sobbed after I found her when I was 18. That taught me not to glibly say 'give the baby up for adoption.

"That assumes that only a woman can 'want and cherish' her own child rather than, as someone pointed out earlier, the father wanting and cherishing his child or someone else wanting and cherishing the child."

Because in the vast majority of cases, women don't want to go through birth and pregnancy and then give the resulting infant away to someone to "want and cherish". The number of women who relinquish infants voluntarily for adoption is extremely small, even in supposedly "abortion-free" Ireland.