Nicola sturgeon is right we shouldn't leave the EU unless all four countries vote for it

[pettywitchinlondon]

I have a lot of time for ns despite not being Scottish or living in Scotland, she is a breath of fresh air and stands for progressive forward thinking.

She's spot on about this double lock right?

I don't think Nicola Sturgeon would dare have a manifesto without a referendum in it. There was a surge in SNP membership after the referendum, and it's my belief that the main, or only issue for many of these new members, is independence.

If I were in the SNP leadership, I would want to keep the new members sweet and would worry that the growth in support could fall away as quickly as it came, if I didn't keep them happy.

So stop it now Ms Sturgeon

Why?

If a person in Scotland doesn't like SNP policies, don't vote for them, simples. Why should NS stop?

I can't bear Nicola Sturgeon. Arrogant cow.

Oh yes - so 'simples' - when only 50% of the vote at the general election, netted the SNP 96% of the seats.

My whole family voted against them - we might just as well have voted for the Legalise Cannabis party, for all the good we did.

I am allowed a viewpoint you know .

Yes, I think she is arrogant. She promises the moon on a stick, but who is supposed to pay for it? It's easy to promise things when you can point the finger of blame elsewhere when you can't (for whatever reason) deliver.

FWIW I loathe all devisive politics. I put ukip and snp in that category, despite the obvious political differences. They play to the media and populist opinion, promising all sorts of things, creating divides.

Sorry, missed of the separatist bit of both snp and ukip. Their primary, central reason for being is separation, from the UK or from Europe. Everything else is secondary. All their policies and actions have this as a central core and aim.

OP, I think she is wrong about the technical facts. At the moment Scotland is just a region of the UK. The UK will be voting as a whole because it is the signatory to the original treaty.

That said, I think the English are small "c" conservatives, and won't have the nerve to vote "no." Too much to lose.

If they did vote "no", I'd expect Scotland would hold another referendum, and would vote to leave the UK. They would then reply to the EU, and would be accepted. Of course they would be excepted. They might have to adopt the Euro, but I reckon that's about it.

Leaving that aside, we are one country for the purposes of EU membership

That is correct, but the UK is not just one country, it is a United Kingdom of four countries, all of whom should have equal weight and importance in the Union.

If England is the only country of the Union that votes to leave, is it really fair for it to impose this massive decision on the other three countries which are meant to be equal.

It is only unfair if the majority don't get their choice.

I will be gutted if we leave. But if the majority choose to leave, that is democracy.

I think it should definitely be more than just a simple majority in favour of the UK leaving, to take us out of the EU.

Frankly, if you need a two-third majority to become head of FIFA, which is a time-limited appointment, you should have to have at least a two-thirds majority to pull the UK out of the EU - or Scotland out of the UK!

She is not a voice of democracy, she is a voice of a small sliver of the UK population with an almost comedically bloated number of seats, in a country which (as a devolved entity) benefits a great deal financially from the EU, getting money that would have to come from the UK "pot" directly rather than via the EU.

Nicola Sturgeon is the voice of 4.8% of the people who voted, and she would be duty bound to throw her weight behind anything that she thinks would make a departure from the EU less likely.

She is like some madly overtired toddler, on a permanent tantrum.

Nicola Sturgeon is an excellent politician. I can't have anything but grudging admiration for her immense success in convincing vast swathes of the electorate and branding herself as the progressive choice.

It's a shame that in my opinion she is a mendacious monomaniac, but hey, that's democracy for you.

Wow at some of the anti Scottish postings here. I thought more on mumsnet would back a strong female progesive leader that is doing all she can to stop the benefit cuts!

I think that's very uncalled for to compare her to tb. Can't ever remember people admiring him or saying he's progressive and forward thinking.

Surely she can't keep going for another referendum until she gets the answers she wants. It wouldn't work like that if they voted yes

It isn't anti Scottish. It's anti Nicola Sturgeon. Scotland is so much more than one person or one party. It isn't anti Scottish to disagree with a lot of snp policies (although that might also be considered contentious).

You can't remember people admiring Tony Blair and saying he was progressive and forward thinking?

Are you very young or do you just have a bad memory. Did the whole of 1997 pass you by? You do know Diana's dead right?

I saw posts on FB, in the wake of the referendum, saying that anyone who voted 'No' should feel too ashamed to sing 'Flower of Scotland' at football or rugby matches, and the saltire was appropriated by the 'Yes' campaign - to send the clear message that voting 'No' made you disloyal.

I have seen people called traitors and quislings for voting 'No' - is it any wonder I feel a lot less welcome in Scotland than I used to.

I do feel like contempt for the SNP has opened up a whole can of contempt for Scottish people in general. Believe me or not, in the run up to the referendum, I recall seeing lots of posts on here referring to the idiotic tribalism of the Scots, our apparent lack of education, ambition and worldliness, often doled out in mocking approximations of Scottish accents.

I didn't vote yes or SNP and I did feel angry and hurt because, at times, it was a bit of a free for all. Though maybe that's just how I experienced it.

No, AgentCooper, not just you.

SDTG. I do wonder about that and I wonder if there will be a similar type of shift because of that sort of behaviour as I think there was in England.

In the run up to the election and just afterwards, there were a lot of extremely vocal left wing people on social media basically calling anybody who didn't vote for Labour a murdering racist scumbag. They seemed to have a total and utter confidence that everybody agreed with them and that their actions would be met with approval by the majority of people. As we know, it didn't quite turn out like that. In fact, a lot of people I have spoken to found these sort of attitudes, screaming down opposition with insults and threats, actually had the opposite effect and turned people off them.

Ditto the paroxysms of anger afterwards. The insistence that people who had not voted for Labour were stupid or ill educated or were mindless automatons of Murdoch who didn't have the understanding of the world that Labour voters did. Again, telling people they are stupid, ill educated, evil, bad and just don't understand isn't a way to get them to support you.

A lot of SNP supporters seem to behave in much the same way, and I wonder if they are going to end up alienating Scottish voters in much the same way?

"Oh yes - so 'simples' - when only 50% of the vote at the general election, netted the SNP 96% of the seats."

I'm sorry, but that is such a bullshit statement. It was a general election, not a Scottish one, so to say they won 96% of seats is utterly, completely and totally nonsensical.

it is not bullshit, because the SNP claim to be speaking for the whole of Scotland, when 50% of those who voted in Scotland, did not vote for them.

I know there are many constituencies where people feel the same sense of disenfranchisement - where my mum lives, for example, you could have put a blue rosette on a pig, and it would right now be on the Government benches, and my mum's views have never been represented - but for me, it feels so much worse, because so many people's votes, over a whole country, have had no worth at all.

SNP may have done well in Scotland - they gained 56 seats on less that 5% of the UK votes (work that one out!)

Nichola Sturgeon may lead the 3rd UK party - but it is time she remembers that she is actually a party of the UNITED KINGDOM. Her voice is not louder than other parties just because of her alleged 'landslide' in Scotland.

We are a democratic Union in the UK and we must work by the current rules or get them changed. Bring on Proportional Representation !

I know there are many constituencies where people feel the same sense of disenfranchisement - where my mum lives, for example, you could have put a blue rosette on a pig, and it would right now be on the Government benches, and my mum's views have never been represented - but for me, it feels so much worse, because so many people's votes, over a whole country, have had no worth at all.

I agree. First pass the post is simply not fit for purpose, and something like the system used for the Scottish parliament would be a vast improvement. As I recall, SNP/Greens/LibDems/UKIP all badly want to see an end to FPTP, its just Labour/Tories who support FPTP for the obvious reason that it is beneficial to them.

It's not just Labour and the Tories though. We had a vote on AV. And we rejected it.