Nicola sturgeon is right we shouldn't leave the EU unless all four countries vote for it

[pettywitchinlondon]

I have a lot of time for ns despite not being Scottish or living in Scotland, she is a breath of fresh air and stands for progressive forward thinking.

She's spot on about this double lock right?

The House of Lords should be replaced by a Senate elected by a party-list p.r. system with separate lists for each of the Four Nations - but the representation should be proportionate to population. The Senate should have a veto on all Bills except Money Bills.

The Members of Parliament for English seats and the English Senators should then double as the English Parliament to which the English Government would be answerable, with the same powers devolved to it as are devolved to Scotland.

The UK Government and Parliament can then retain responsibility for such areas as defence, foreign policy, foreign trade, and immigration which cannot be devolved without setting up internal barriers to the movement of people, goods, or money, which even the SNP have always agreed is unthinkable.

NS has said for some time that she will call another IndyRef when DC calls the EU Ref.

She'd be delighted if the UK voted to come out of the EU and then she would call an IndyRef with one of the main tenets being Scotland applying to be in the EU.

No saying the EU would admit Scotland alone and it would take years to negotiate it if they did.

She is right, of course she is. One country should not be able to effectively force another to do something against it's will. It should be four individual votes for each country of the UK, if England wants to leave and the rest don't, England can go off and do it's own thing.

The UK is one country, not four. The people of Scotland voted to be a part of that country and so have to accept the wishes of the entire population of that country.

Ms Sturgeon is grating mightily upon my nerves.

When the Scots voted "no" they voted to remain part of the UK.

The UK will vote.

During that vote Scots may register their desire to stay in or leave the EU, but they cannot have their own independent vote.

I'm beginning to think Ms Sturgeon has issues with democracy as well as arithmetic. We already know that her understanding of a "generation" is about 3 years.

iHave - if the UK leaves the EU, then there's another independence referendum in Scotland, which votes Yes, and an independent Scotland applies to rejoin the EU, won't they have to accept the Euro? Which would go completely counter to 'keeping the pound', which was so central to last year's referendum.

Yet if most of England decided to leave, we all have to. That's England's decision though, not the UK. How would that be fair democracy?
There will not be an England decision, no such thing. There will be a UK vote, one united country voting. One person, one vote. That's democracy.

thechandler

So if Wales, Scotland and Ireland unanimously vote to stay, but the English population vote otherwise, and the whole vote is mixed into one, leading to the 'UK' leaving the EU, that is democracy? I don't agree I'm afraid. Of course, if and when there is a referendum, I highly doubt the UK will vote to leave, so hopefully this argument is a moot point.

Ms Sturgeon is grating mightily upon my nerves

God yes. She's like an aggravating toddler pulling at your skirt for a different thing every five minutes. Her and merry band of comrades made a show of themselves at the State Opening of Parliament and will do so again. Only a matter of time before one of them posts a selfie having a piss in a pot plant or something. And the esteemed Scots people really want these people to lead them? Really? It boggles my mind.

So if Wales, Scotland and Ireland unanimously vote to stay, but the English population vote otherwise, and the whole vote is mixed into one, leading to the 'UK' leaving the EU, that is democracy? I don't agree I'm afraid. Of course, if and when there is a referendum, I highly doubt the UK will vote to leave, so hopefully this argument is a moot point.

NEWSFLASH: Ireland is not part of the UK.

Gently Treating you charitably as meaning Northern Ireland when you say Ireland: why is it not democracy? What if Scotland votes to stay in, the North of England votes to quit, and the South votes to stay in? How many internal borders do you want?

After all, the good people of Roscommon and South Leitrim are going to have to accept same-sex marriage!

If it comes to that, the people of Cardiff where the Welsh Assembly sits voted against devolution but the Assembly has the same powers there as it does anywhere else in Wales.

Yes I meant Northern Ireland, in the context of this conversation, you knew what I meant. If different parts of England vote different, it's what the country as a whole wants that counts. Same for Scotland, Wales and NORTHERN Ireland. Of course, seems like North England wants to be South Scotland anyway, maybe it's time for some 'reshuffling' of the 'internal borders'. In all seriousness, the way of 'the UK gets what England votes for' is getting stale. Look how Scotland voted almost all SNP, yet they ultimately are governed by the Tories. Seems 'democracy' only truly works in the UK as long as England gets the ultimate say/voice/vote.

Gently- Are you saying that Ireland was a typo. Or are you saying that you genuinely think it's ok to refer to Northern Ireland as Ireland, because everyone will know what you mean?

Leaving that aside, we are one country for the purposes of EU membership. There is no "Scotland says X, Wales says Y". If Scotland wanted its own say on EU membership, it needed to vote yes to independence. As it didn't, it's no more relevant than if London is dragged kicking and screaming out of the EU against it's will. The internal borders of the UK have no particular significance here.

That's called majority rule. I would confine it to matters which cannot be devolved - and there's obviously a debate to be had about what they are.

But I don't see, for example, Ms Sturgeon allowing the Orkneys and Shetlands to separate from Scotland if in a future referendum they vote differently from the rest of Scotland!

Penguin, it was a typo, however whether that was obvious or not, most people would have the capacity to understand what I meant in the context of this discussion. I did not mean any offense to Northern Irish people, but I doubted anyone on here would be that petty to point it out. However, since my mistake has been pointed out three times now, perhaps I'm wrong.

It isn't petty to people in Northern Ireland. Truly it isn't.

Oh come on. That is bloody petty. Gently clearly had no intention to offend. Leave her alone.

It was a typo, I apologised. Now this argument is distracting from the original point, or is my silly mistake becoming more of a pressing discussion than my geographic mistake?

The thing that puzzles me is why Nicola Sturgeon is taking this angle.

I mean, I agree it is in Scotland's best interests to stay in. And that of the UK as a whole.

So why isn't that her big issue that she's starting her fight on: It's good for Scotland, it's good for the UK.

Oh, because her main agenda item is, and always will be, setting herself up for her next independence referendum. Settled the question for a generation there did we?

It's ok Aer, I'm being distracted in real life, hence my last post being jumbled, along with my original mistake. I'm off now until I get a minute peace to type .

Believe she means to have an indie ref every generation 3 years until the poor Scots are so tired of her constant goady fuckering they just tick "Yes" to shut her the feck up.

GeorgeYeatsAutomaticWriter, Penguins I'm offering the benefit of doubt that they meant NI not IRL.

I quite frankly don't think the UK as a whole is ready or would be ready in just 2 years to decide on EU membership whilst all this internal fighting is going on.

Scotland voted No, so for now we can settle on that. And the general election turned out to produce a Conservative government - be it only a by a slight majority.. yet we're still in-fighting. Not new I know but the ramifications on any EU decision would be huge. I wonder if the general public really genuinely understand the potential consequences of such a vote.

FWIW I think Cameron backed himself in a corner by leaving the EPP group in the EU parliament and now has a strained relationship with Brussels because he tends to come home patting himself on the back over how he vetoed this or that directive but in truth he had no significance.

As it stands the rest of the EU is tired with the UK wanting to be treated as the special one, they no longer want to bend over backwards to accommodate us - rightly so imo.

(This might come across a bit left field but should there be an in/out EU referendum I suspect they'll fudge it so that we technically don't leave but can negotiate on various things but the fundamental tenets of EU membership incl free movement of people and goods will have to stay the same.)

But to go back to the original post, as the UK we operate as one entity so it would be wrong for the separate countries that make up the UK to have their own vote then tally it up. That would be very wrong and probably work to fuel all sorts of chaos.

If the UK votes to leave and there is a referendum, Scotland cannot remain part of the EU as it is not a member. It would have to apply to join.

BeenWondering - I agree. I suspect the other EU leaders are already heartily sick of the UK constantly demanding that it be the special snowflake.