Nicola sturgeon is right we shouldn't leave the EU unless all four countries vote for it

[pettywitchinlondon]

I have a lot of time for ns despite not being Scottish or living in Scotland, she is a breath of fresh air and stands for progressive forward thinking.

She's spot on about this double lock right?

TSSDNCOP - I suspect you are right - and if you are, dh and I will be leaving Scotland - with heavy hearts, because we love it here - but last year's referendum was awful, and I don't want to live through another. It had a very real effect on my mental health (or lack of it).

Andrewofgg But I don't see, for example, Ms Sturgeon allowing the Orkneys and Shetlands to separate from Scotland if in a future referendum they vote differently from the rest of Scotland!

Now that's a really interesting question. Legally, Orkney and Shetland were pawned by Denmark for a sum of money. Technically, the pawn remains unredeemed. There are proper documents in existence narrating this. Constitutionally, the position of Scotland and Orkney as part of Scotland is very unclear.

In answer to the question posed by the OP, NS is definitely incorrect, because Scotland is not a member of the EU and cannot vote to remain part of it. If she thinks that it is permitted by the devolution settlement, the Scottish Government would need to sue the Government of the UK in court, as Nicola Sturgeon does not have the power nor authority to make those sort of decisions.

Which would be a fine way for an independent Scotland to start. I'll go out on a limb and say I don't think AS or NS ever thought there would be a vote in favour of independence and realise it was financially unworkable, but cobbled together some arguments so as not to lose face. Clinging onto EU membership is just about their only lifeline in the event it does actually happen, and that would be after applying and being accepted, and without the opts outs that the UK has negotiated due to its size and power.

i would like to say i am scottish .and nicola sturgeon only thinks of snp voters to hell with the rest of us .no we either stay or go as the uk .not what some little dictator thinks .we opted to stay in the uk .even although there scare tactics at the referendum vote .we could live off our oil which is now worth less than half ..

That's a good side point. If the EU is sick of the UK, imagine how well disposed they would be to Scotland seeking to negotiate special terms of membership. That one would be brutal.

i honestly believe if the yes campaign had won last year .they would have freaked because they had no agreement on euro membership .no agreement on using the pound .but they had to go through with it for to save face .

YY TSSDNCOP. Can you imagine if yes had own and the no campaign decided to continually campaign? There would be cries of treason!

DH and I are quite certain we'll leave if another one is called.

Won, not own.

Problem is, no couldn't continually campaign. Once the divorce ia finalised you cannot undo it. So the SNP can keep nagging, but the reverse couldn't happen.

I have family in the Highlands who will also leave if there is ever a yes vote. But they were scared to tell anyone locally they were voting no as their business would have suffered. They have also pretended to vote SNP this time, but didn't.

Ns is wrong. We are a United Kingdom! We make decisions as a united country. Otherwise nothing will ever get decided. You might as well say every county has to agree or leave the eu.

The UK really needs to sort out its constitutional settlement into something coherent and consistent, rather than small changes every few years that actually make the UK less logical and viable as a nation. Different levels of devolution, no equivalent to devolution for England, and manner of other nonsense drifting its way through with no thought as to the end point.

We are drifting pretty close to a federal system now without the national structures to support federalism - in particular a regionally-based Upper House, a representative Lower House to consider reserved issues only, and equivalence of powers across the four home nations.

I agree Jassy

Arf, Arf, arfity Arf at this thread.

Unionist paranoia at its best.

A point worth noting is that an independent Scotland would have to apply for EU membership anyway, regardless of whether the rUK was in the EU or not.

As a new state it would not be a signatory to any of the EU treaties. This also means it (if allowed entry) would have to adopt the Euro and the EU treaties in full, with none of the opt-outs currently enjoyed by the UK.

This is what the legal advice obtained by the UK government says, and it is also what senior figures in the EU have said. The only document that says that Scotland would be allowed to "remain in" is a mysterious piece of "advice" obtained by Alex Salmond from Scotland' Law Officers. This "advice" has never been seen.

Accordingly, leaving the EU makes no difference to Scotland unless they remain in the UK, something which will presumably be considered in another referendum.

The SNP are being extremely evasive on this point. Nicola Sturgeon is a lawyer. She should know this stuff like the back of her hand.

She should also know perfectly well that it is not democratic for the wishes of 51% of 5 million from one place to outweigh 100% of 55 million in another. Presumably she and the rest of the SNP have decent maths.

JassyRadlett
We are drifting pretty close to a federal system now without the national structures to support federalism

Do you think the EU has been a shining example of this?

If Scotland voted to stay but rUK votes to leave, there needs to be another independence referendum sooner rather than later.

TBH I think we're conflating issues here as recognised by quite a few posters. Scotland's independence and an EU referendum are different issues. They both have different criteria and consequences.

Do you think the EU has been a shining example of this?

The EU is very far from a federal state, whatever some would argue.

There are plenty of functional federated nation states around if you want to make realistic comparisons.

A point worth noting is that an independent Scotland would have to apply for EU membership anyway, regardless of whether the rUK was in the EU or not.

Yes - though if the UK had voted to leave the EU it would remove one of the big uncertainty/safety barriers that helped the No campaign last year.

Downtown you should see a doctor for that cough given you get free scrips and all

If the UK leaves the EU, and following a yes vote, an independant Scotland applies to rejoin, not only would they have to accept the euro, but they would have to accept a lot of other terms and conditions, without the UK's current opt-out.

Toad The SNP are being extremely evasive on this point. Nicola Sturgeon is a lawyer. She should know this stuff like the back of her hand.

She will certainly have studied EU law and know how a contract is formed (which is what an international treaty is). I can only assume that she is appealing deliberately to the internet warrior/BellaCaledonia type and not the more educated or informed amongst us. So basically we can pay our higher Scottish taxes and shut up, because Scotland is a fairer and more just society.

Although I hear she has now appointed a couple of decent lawyers as advisors, so I guess the sort of unresearched nonsense that makes some of the output of the Scottish Government so amusing at times is likely to be reduced.

That would be good, getting to have the Euro, I don't like how the UK picks how much we want to be a part of the EU.

TSSDNCOP exactly.

I can't bear Nicola Sturgeon. Arrogant cow.

She spent millions of pounds and was told no. It really irritates me, this constant needling to ask the question again.

I really hope we stay part of Europe, but wish NS would jog on.

tilder nutshell

I have no axe to grand with the Scots. I recall the angst from both sides during the referendum and it was obviously so emotive for many, but it was democracy in action and the result was clear.

So stop it now Ms Sturgeon.

I welcome a referendum on Europe. I hope it's No to withdrawing, but also that it will be a fair fight where we'll all get better information on the facts of our relationship with Europe. That will be difficult enough in itself, but I hope we do.

Which is another reason I wish Ms sturgeon would just stop it with diverting unnecessarily from the issue because of her own agenda.

I like Sturgeon. I think she's clever, witty, well-dressed and a good politician. I utterly disagree with her views on Scottish independence, but I think she does a good job expressing them.

However, I think it's daft to suggest that 6% of the UK population should have a hold on the other 94%. And those 6% are just the people who live in Scotland - which doesn't correlate nicely to "being Scottish". Scottish expats in England and elsewhere in the UK didn't get to vote in the referendum last year and didn't get to vote in Scotland in the general election, so she doesn't represent all of us.

malefridgeblindness
Scottish expats in England and elsewhere in the UK Scottish people are not expats in the UK FGS!