Nicola sturgeon is right we shouldn't leave the EU unless all four countries vote for it

[pettywitchinlondon]

I have a lot of time for ns despite not being Scottish or living in Scotland, she is a breath of fresh air and stands for progressive forward thinking.

She's spot on about this double lock right?

Twooter She is just looking for an excuse for another referendum.

I would go further and say she is sounding off over something that she knows is impossible, because it makes her sound like the successful revolutionary she has failed to be. In other words, its all about the soundbites, less about the result.

So a woman who didn't finish Uni, get married or have children is somehow a lesser being or a lesser woman TheChandler? Despite what that woman says, why do you define her based on such a bizarre criteria?

My big fear is that a vote to leave the EU will be enough to propel the SNP towards another independence referendum. I do not want to go through that again.

Why should England be able to pass policies that affect Wales, Scotland and NI without the consent of any of those nations?

England is the only one of these that has no voice, no Assembly, no Parliament, no devolved powers!

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius I fear that in or out the EU is just a red herring in your argument. Another independence referendum is very much on the cards whatever happens.

I grant you that she's a breath of fresh air but I'll also add that that's what they used to say about Tony Blair. So tread carefully.

So true. Beware the new boy/girl who thinks they know better than everyone else. NS has no remit to redefine democracy to suit her own personal agenda.

NS is a complete plum, she's not progressive in her thinking, the SNP are not progressive - they just don't like democracy and are small minded bigots.

We should leave the EU and if we had another vote in Scotland I suspect we would vote no again - what would she do then? Egg on her face twice... Really she's just got nothing better to do than make a load of noise about nothing.

Chapuys- (great name btw) I understand how Westminster works thanks and I'm not "really thick" or an "idiot". I was responding to a hypothetical situation in which a poster talked about 51% of England vs 51% of Wales, Scotland and NI combined.
I think devolution is a shit system and we need to have English representation separately from the Westminster parliament. WM should deal with UK wide issues IMO. I would keep the HoC essentially as is (evening up representation to more closely reflect population) and replace the HoL with a senate style body where the 4 nations are equally represented- balancing population with national identity and interests. That would just leave the thorny issue of London which currently has a certain degree of devolved power. Whether that should remain the case I'm not sure.

I grant you that she's a breath of fresh air but I'll also add that that's what they used to say about ... Nick Clegg, too. People seem to be such suckers for "new, improved washing powder politicians".

Purits - looking at the 2011 statistics, 83.9% of the UK population live in England, which gives them a much greater influence in UK politics and referenda than the rest of the UK countries.

Been - i am waiting to see what is in the SNP's manifesto for the Holyrood elections last year - I have heard experts suggesting that a referendum will be in there (there's no way Nicola Sturgeon would be allowed, by the SNP's fired-up, highly motivated new members, to leave it out), but in a vague form - that a referendum could happen if there were to be 'substantial change'.

Of course, NS and the SNP leadership would then get to decide what constituted 'substantial change' - leaving the EU would definitely count - but I suspect you are right that another referendum is a certainty - it's just when.

83.9% of the UK population live in England, which gives them a much greater influence in UK politics and referenda than the rest of the UK countries.

What about English politics. When are they going to sort out the West Lothian question?

BeenWondering So a woman who didn't finish Uni, get married or have children is somehow a lesser being or a lesser woman TheChandler? Despite what that woman says, why do you define her based on such a bizarre criteria?

Not lesser - irrelevant words. I'm simply sick of being told how to think and who to worship by people who can't actually hold down a job, despite having no valid reason not to. How dare she dictate to me that I should pay more tax because Scotland is a more left wing country when she has had no proper experience of being a taxpayer herself? I do think that counts for something. There are some remarkably smug people in the SNP, who have an awful lot of time on their hands to "police" the internet, insulting people and trying to catch them out on some supposed wrong statement.

I'm utterly sick fed up of them. If only they would actually do something useful that might benefit Scotland.

I can't get my head round the SNP's position on the EU. Having argued that Scotland should separate from the UK on the basis that the Westminster government is distant, sleaze-ridden, too right-wing and lacking in a popular mandate in Scotland why in the name of jabbery fuck is she so keen to cling to the EU, which has these characteristics and to a far greater degree?

Maybe they should split the parliamentary week - on some days only the English MPs sit, as an English Parliament with the same powers as the other devolved parliaments, to rule on the matters that are devolved to Scotland, NI, and Wales, and the rest of the week the whole parliament sits, as the UK Parliament, to deal with all-UK issues.

It's much more complicated than that though SDT, we would need to have separate English PM, cabinet, ministers and government departments because the party that wins in England may not win across the whole UK. We would also have to ensure that the Welsh, Scottish, NI (and possibly London assemblies) all had the same powers (they don't atm) or it would be a nightmare.

I think people may well be wrong to think that the EU would want an independent Scotland in the EU. Many countries with separatist movements such as the Catalans and Basques in Spain and France, various groups in Italy and lots of other places are taking quite a dim view of the Scottish independence movement because of the 'Pour encourager les autres' angle.

The EU would also be cautious about giving a state which may have high public spending with dubious claims about how the intend to fund it as a member. Scotland doesn't generate much money apart from oil and gas, and those are subject to price fluctuations. They don't want another Greece on their hands.

If Scotland don't want to leave the EU they will have to vote on independence and leave the Union and take their chances to see if they'll be allowed back in.

I find it puzzling that people aren't more angry about the Mid-Lothian question or the SNP demanding things like this. It makes me angry. A lot of left wing people support things like this, purely because they see it as a way a forcing their minority viewpoint on the majority. But exactly the same people would go crazy if a banana republic was offering small sections of it's society a disproportionate amount of power over another section. Like the Sunni's in Iraq dominating over the Shia majority under Saddam Hussein.

OTheHugeManatee because parts of Scotland qualify as meeting the criteria for additional EU funding.

And if you read their White Paper and some of the outpourings of the Scottish Government, they think the EU will exclude them from all sorts of things just because, well, it would be nice for them if that happened.

e.g. the EU invited responses on its proposed legislation to extend freedom of information rights for environmental reasons (one of the main reasons that FOI requests are currently refused under in Scotland). The Scottish Government responded that it thought Scotland should be exempt because, wait for it, it might create confusion amongst staff in public bodies, and because almost all FOI requests currently come from people in Scotland, there is no point in making access to information easier for "people in various countries". Oh, and they also believe the existing legislation is just fine, because it is designed for "Scottish circumstances".

purits 'English votes for English laws' was in the Queen's Speech yesterday.

Can't come soon enough if you ask me.

Heres the link, scroll to section 13 if you don't believe me.

www.gov.scot/Resource/0045/00458063.pdf

Dammit, FuzzyWizard -'and there was me thinking I had solved it all!

Seriously, yes, it is more complicated than that.

I'll stop trying to be clever now.

She is right, of course she is. One country should not be able to effectively force another to do something against it's will. It should be four individual votes for each country of the UK, if England wants to leave and the rest don't, England can go off and do it's own thing.

No, it makes no sense.

The UK is the member of the EU, not the member states. It is no more logical than giving London a right of veto. Or Cornwall.

I wish I could say she was right because I want us to stay and introducing a double lock presumption of no would assist that. But she isn't.

She's trying to ensure that Scotland isn't forced to leave the EU if England vote to and Scotland do not.

She is right to do so, as it would be undemocratic to lose the benefit of being an EU citizen if you had that and had voted to keep it.

I hope she succeeds as if the UK leaves the EU it will be brutal, an absolute economic apocalypse, and anything anyone does to make that nightmare scenario less likely the better.

Fuzzy, I agree with you. Scotland don't want to leave the EU, I get the general feeling Wales is the same (considering the amount of the economy that depends on farming, it's no surprise). Yet if most of England decided to leave, we all have to. That's England's decision though, not the UK. How would that be fair democracy?

TheChandler It's the one point that leaves me with a nagging doubt that, despite all the stirring rhetoric about positive civic nationalism, Scottish independence really is just about hating the English. Because if it was really just about independence and self-determination and democratic rule then they'd be running as fast as possible away from the giant, corrupt, strangling and utterly undemocratic bureaucracy that is the EU.