everyone living in the UK should get to vote on EU ref

[agentEgypt]

Just heard on the radio that EU migrants won't be allowed to vote. This seems very unfair as many could have been here and laying tax for decades!

Iknow your comment about simply being able to"scoot off home" just shows your complete ignorance that a lot of us have made their home here, and that actually emigrating is not easy, no matter if it is from the country of your birth or back to the country of your birth.

I actually have obtained citizenship now because I was terrified by the anti EU rhetoric of recent years, but many didn't think it was necessary when they could exercise their treaty rights freely.

Widow It may show my "ignorance", but the fact remains that you have an infrastructure available to support you in another country if you don't want to stay here...

And those who then would be made to leave - should they leave their British spouses and children behind, or should their state of birth support them despite hat there'd be no right to free movement anymore? What about the British citizens abroad - should they leave their non-Brit families behind? Immigration law already forces plenty of families between British and non EU partners apart.

A Brexit would remove the choice of wanting to stay or leave, as the rights under which non UK EU citizens reside in the UK, and UK citizens reside in other member states would be gone.

Widow I don't think anybody who might vote to leave the EU would countenance residency being denied retroactively - I certainly wouldn't, even though I am leaning towards voting for us to leave the EU. These are things that need to be hammered out and made very clear before any referendum, and I should hope the government will make the position clear. If they are planning to impose this, then on those grounds alone I would vote for us to stay in even though I don't think it's in the UK's best interests.

Re. Commonwealth citizens being allowed to vote in UK elections, that's a bloody farce. Can you imagine if they attempted to argue that for a chance to vote in Australian elections for example? They'd get very short shrift. It is unfair.

When I was younger, and very pro-Europe, I thought membership of the EU would do all these marvellous things for the UK. That simply hasn't happened, and there is a very large part of the population who are growing increasingly frustrated at seeing their sovereignty being whittled away day-by-day. They cannot, and will not be ignored. The UK has never been culturally 'European'. We are not generally inclined towards the more staunchly socialist political culture that is so entrenched in Scandinavia and France, and while we're not as rapaciously capitalist as the USA, we aren't a comfy fit with mainland Europe. Thank God we never joined the Euro, as we would never have been able to grow our way out of the recession, which we have done slowly but surely.

If the SNP victory has taught us anything, it's that people do have a profound sense of their own culture and will fight hard to be heard. I see the EU referendum as akin to that.

I don't think anybody who might vote to leave the EU would countenance residency being denied retroactively.

Well that's all very well, maybe the UK wouldn't send anyone home.

But what about every other country in Europe that currently has UK nationals living there under the right to free movement. They'll have nothing to do with the vote, but they could send their UK nationals home. Or at least make it harder for them to stay.

I understand what you're saying, AppleBarrel, and I realise that in your position you would worry about this. I don't see it happening, because it would be a logistical nightmare on both sides. I should imagine that the European Court of Human Rights would then be inundated with cases from families affected by this. In practice, I think if the referendum led to Brexit, then residents in this position would simply be made to take the citizenship of their chosen country of residence within a given time frame.

A poster up thread was moaning about losing their jobs if we exit, and was voting 'in'....why is it OK to vote based on how the exit might negatively effect you on a personal level, but voting 'out' to make ones lot better is selfish and short sighted?

And those who then would be made to leave

Sorry, I thought we were talking about who was able to vote?

I stick to my guns regarding UK citizens only...

Yes we were talking about who should be allowed to vote and EU citizens of any nationality exercising their right to free movement, no matter if UK nationals residing in other member states or non UK nationals residing in the UK will be affected most severely should the electorate be stupid enough to vote out.

twerking what do you expect would the positive impact of a brexit on a personal level or national level be?

judy that's an incredibly naive point of view. Do you honestly think the French or Spanish governments are going to change the rules on nationality to accommodate the citizens of country that just held up two fingers to the EU?

Many British people in France and Spain already have the right to apply for nationality - however they have no automatic right to be granted it, and I doubt very much that the administrative structures exist to process hundreds of thousands of applications.

I don't personally feel at risk of losing my home or job - though I can't say that returning to the pre-free-movement pleasures of applying for residency cards fills me with any joy. However if I were a british pensioner in Spain I'd be extremely worried about reciprocal healthcare agreements, and anyone with less than 5 years legal residence should be concerned about the right to remain unless you are in a category that would currently qualify for a visa or work permit.

applebarrell yes, that's right - it will certainly become harder to stay (unless the UK decides to become part of the EEA/EFTA in which case free movement remains in force, in both directions).

People forget that after an EU exit the UK may have to conclude separate negotiations with all the separate EU countries and there's no guarantee that if, say, Germany agrees to let British immigrants stay, that Spain will do the same thing. These countries will act in their own national interests - it's easy to imagine that Germany (which has a smaller, mainly working British population) might decide that on balance British migrants were contributing positively and could stay, whereas Spain might reasonably conclude that British pensioners were a drain on its limited healthcare resources and would no longer be welcome.

I live in the EU and my 15 years are up on a particular date next year. So until the referendum date is fixed I don't know whether I'll be able to vote. But the issues will affect me just as much the day after I lose my right to vote. So the 15 yr cut off does seem rather arbitrary for the referendum. ( I can see there is a logic for it where general elections are concerned and as I left the UK without intending to return I haven't exercised my right to vote in General Elections.)

There are restrictions for British citizens who want to apply for citizenship in the EU country they live in. The residence time varies from country to country, the average being around 8 years. Some countries have language requirements. Some, Spain being one of them, don't allow dual citizenship. I can't see Brits choosing to renounce their British citizenship at a time when the UK is closing it's borders to those who don't have it.

Most British migrants living in France don't have the language skills required to qualify for french nationality - it's not a terribly high bar (level b1 of the European common framework, which is about the standard reached at AS level) but many would still fall a long way short.

I don't think, though, that for long term residents nationality would be required - more likely we would need visas and residency permits, like most non-EU residents, and these would only be readily obtainable available by those able to support themselves and paying into the healthcare system.

People forget what it was like trying to move abroad pre EU free-movement - we moved to France in 1998 with £100k in UK savings, and I had a job - but my non-salaried partner was still unable to get a residency permit or health cover until we married!