Fallen out with MIL over manners

[WoeIsMee]

I'm really annoyed. I've NC for this.

My MIL had my children today and they've come back saying 'what' instead of 'pardon.' This is because mil told them that 'what' is correct which is clearly wrong - it's 'pardon.'

I'm really annoyed as correct manners are so important, also it's undermined me.

WIBU to ring her and tell her she's wrong and ask her to tell the children that she was wrong?

Manners and etiquette are different anyway. That someone be pleasant, considerate and well intentioned in their delivery is good manners. That they use the 'correct' set of words is etiquette.

Manners are important. Etiquette? Meh.

That sums it up nicely Pictish.

Exactly my point. This is not about manners -it's about 'correct' words therefore etiquette. IMO etiquette was designed to be exclusive, therefore is bad manners to insist on 'correct etiquette'.

Pseudo, "Say again" is military. When you are talking on radios, you need to use the fewest words possible and for everything to be clear. If you don't hear what was said, you tell them "Say again, over" or "Say again all after X" or "Say again all before Y".
Like saying "Wrong" if you've made a mistake: "I'm meeting James at 6.30. Wrong. 7.30".
Sounds a bit curt, but gets the gist across swiftly.

I suppose anything is okay if you use a pleasant tone of voice.

Sympathies for having an undermining MIL - very trying. Excellent opportunity for teaching the DC about live and let live and diplomacy though.

The very concept of a 'correct' word is uneducated.

Language evolves. There is correct grammar, but not correct words.

I also can't believe that anyone teaches their children words on the basis of thinking what class some snobby person will judge them to have come from is important or even acceptable.

It's a subtle form of discrimination.

I agree - it's not even a matter of logical grammar.

Discrimination/exclusive/tribal; that's the purpose of etiquette and 'judging' specific word usage.

Not explained well - I agree that there is correct grammar,( though it evolves too. Eg 'whom' is becoming old-fashioned and its use could be for the purpose of demonstrating 'superior' education or that the user is 'clever'; both ill-mannered unless in an exam!)

I love a what/pardon thread . So entertaining and not even half-term yet.

Ooh a . First I've seen on mn!

I love these threads. I have a yearning to live in England and then I read threads like this and they terrify me. I don't think I could ever fit in, everything seems like a minefield over there

And since I've bothered to post I might as well add that I'm also a 'sorry, what did you say?' person and not a 'pardon?' person. I think pardon just isn't used much where I live, but I don't think it's a class thing, since I'm not in England.

It must give a very bad impression of, ahem, Britain.

How ironic given that British people supposedly take pride in being polite - queuing and all that.

Who would be the prats really though? The person politely saying 'pardon' or the tiny-minded, sniggering, rude toffs judging them over minute nuances in bloody etiquette?

Absolutely.

It must be tiring to feel the need to correct the grandchildren like that.

I don't think this sort of thing is that important in Scotland tbh. 'Pardon' is usually said in a sarcastic way. In the way that you might say 'language Timothy' a la the mother in 'Sorry'. I would never say 'pardon' or 'toilet' here (England) because I've read too many books such as 'Looking At The English'. It's bad enough being judged for having a Scottish accent (yes they do!) without adding in linguistic social markers.
As a side note though, I think this phobia of 'toilet' is a generational thing. My dc went to private school and they say 'toilet'. (All that money down the drain).

Exactly pictish and rogue.

The words "manners" and "etiquette" are often mistakenly used as interchangeable synonyms on MN (as in "it's just basic manners" when sometimes it absolutely isn't, it's the etiquette of the poster's social and family circle which they believe should be a universal standard - as in the recurrent "thank you letters" debate).

BitOfFun and Pictish have said the only sensible things on this thread. Manners matter. Etiquette is bollocks.

Now. Where does everyone stand on 'dessert'?

Let me spell it out for you. If you say "pardon", anyone from upper-middle class upwards will snigger. Not fair, but true

No they will not. To do so would quite clearly indicate to everyone within the vicinity that you are only pretending you have class and that in reality you are a bit of a climber.

This is not much different to actually saying pardon yourself as both indicate the same thing.

Only one is likely to result in a distinct lack of further social interactions,and it is not the word pardon.

AnnPerkins I have never stood on dessert in my life! That would be a very silly thing to do, and I'm never silly.

Now. Where does everyone stand on 'dessert'?

Ah, now, where I come from, dessert is a particular course in a very long meal. It involves fruit and petits fours, and coffee, and probably a speech.

Starter
Sorbet
Fish
Meat
Pudding
Dessert
Cheese

HTH.

No they will not. To do so would quite clearly indicate to everyone within the vicinity that you are only pretending you have class and that in reality you are a bit of a climber.

This.

Dessert is fruit. Yes.