AIBU or is my neighbor

[deliverdaniel]

I really can't work out whether IABU because I am feeling baseline resentment about my neighbor (we have had problems in the past which I have posted about) or whether this is fair.

We live in a rented flat, part of a conversion which is two flats- we are upstairs, our neighbor is downstairs. SHe doesn't like us, complains constantly at us about all kinds of things- hates our kids etc etc. We are both renting with the same landlord.

there is large front garden, jointly used by both flats, which my kids used to play in- it was previously kind of a mess- not terrible, but a bit overgrown and the kids enjoyed playing in it. The neighbor enjoys gardening and has recently dug up the whole thing and planted a lot of plants and made it into a more well kept, fancy garden. She didn't tell me she was going to do this, or ask me what I thought or anything. What she has done looks nice, and I have been appreciative of her hard work- told her that she has done a really good job etc. But now she is saying that our DC can no longer play there because of all the work she has done to it, and that they might ruin the plants. Yesterday she shouted at 19 month old DS for running in there. AIBU to think that she doesn't have the right to do this? I monitor them carefully and make sure they don't damage anything, but tbh i would rather it was still overgrown and they didn't have to worry about spoiling things there and think that this is our shared space and we have just as much right to it as she does (this last bit is technically true according to the lease- just wondering if it is also generally 'right' in 'not being a total dick' terms.) I don't mind that she fixed it, and it does look nice, but I feel as though that doesn't somehow give her ownership of it, and the right to tell my DCs off. Or am I being unfair on her after all her hard work to expect her to put up with my DCs still runniing around and should take them to play elsehwere? Would appreciate opinions! thank you!

She did it without consulting you, she says your DC can't play there at all, and she shouts at them if they run into the garden?

YANBU, and ignore anyone who says you are. She is clearly a nightmare anyway, and this is just an extension of that. Of course your children can play there.

So not only have these very young, innocent, children lost their wilderness, they are now being told they are not to run too?!

But it wasn't their private wilderness... it's a shared GARDEN and neighbour took initiative to tidy it up. OP could easily take DC to woods, park or a playground to be noisy and run around. Their wellbeing will not be compromised by learning to respect others in shared spaces. If they can't play quietly without damaging someone else's plants, they need to play somewhere else.

I don't agree that young children should take priority over an elderly person. The old lady took initiative to transform overgrown garden into a place she too could enjoy. She was probably fed-up of not being able to use it, yet had to put up with noisy kids right outside her flat all the time. She put a lot of time and effort into making it nice and is probably afraid kids won't respect it. She may not be able to get out and about easily or have transport to get to somewhere she can sit outside with a book. Why shouldn't she sit out in sun and enjoy some peace and quiet, nurture her plants, potter around in fresh air, without risk of being knocked over by running kids?

Of course she shouldn't ban your kids from garden, that's ridiculous, but I do think kids should be taught good manners and appropriate behaviour for a shared space. Rough boisterous play is not appropriate when you share garden with an elderly tenant. It's NOT inevitable that kids make lots of noise and charge around just because they're outside!! Mine don't.
It sounds like DC are bored. Maybe leave some toys out for them or build a den or wendy-house or put up swings/slide in garden so they feel they have some claim to it too, then encourage quiet play that doesn't involve squashing plants or running. She can hardly object if they're not disturbing her or causing damage. Or agree to use garden on different days, so you both have privacy.

I'm people think OP shouldn't replace plants if her DC damage them!! If she's monitoring DC (which she says she is) she will notice if they damage a plant, so neighbour can't blame them for things they didn't damage. If your DC damage something in a communal area, don't you think you have a moral obligation to replace it? What if neighbour got a dog and let it chew up the DC's toys, should she just claim it's not her responsibility?

Landlords don't have to give notice to make improvements to communal areas, and they don't need tenants' approval to tidy and re-plant a communal garden. I rent out a house and give tenants free rein to plant things in garden, provided they look after it.
Few landlords would object to a tenant doing up a neglected garden and spending money on nice plants. She's shown she is prepared to take care of his property, even investing her own money in it. I'm sure he'd rather the revamped garden is maintained, instead of spoiled by DC!

I am sorry, climbing, but I really cannot understand where you are coming from on this. These are not older boisterous children, they are very, very young children, who are supposed to be running around. And it wasn't their private wilderness, but equally it wasn't the other tenant's private garden to change at whim. And what you are saying about landlord and tenant isn't correct, it is just the approach you personally would take - I would be hopping mad if a tenant planted plants or cut down plants in a garden I rented to them without asking first. And if memory serves, the other tenant isn't elderly - she's about 60 - and so I would say yes, most definitely, the wellbeing of children under 4 should come first. What is done is done, but the OP shouldn't let herself be bullied - which is what I have assumed as she asked the question in the first place - when you are bullied it is easy to lose sense of reality, briefly, and to seek reassurance for a stance which is quite clearly reasonable. I would be very surprised if young children could do damage - more likely they'd pick the flowers before anyone could grab them to stop them - and get yelled at. Hence better the flowers are put away.... So, I guess you and I are going to need to agree to disagree.

Sorry OP I was making a load of assumptions there - I didn't mean lose sense of reality but perspective - and I am probably talking about what happened to me!

I think you need to speak to the landlord about it.

She has done a lot of work but if she's significantly changed the garden the landlord might not appreciate it.

I mean, who is going to be responsible for the upkeep? She might do it now, but what if she moves or her health suffers? It doesn't sound like the landlord really wanted to do a lot of work before if it was a wilderness garden, so I can't see them being happy about it.

Also, you have equal use of the garden. It's in your lease, you have every right to let the children run about.

She'd soon be complaining if they were running about in the flat, so why does she want to stop them running in the garden?

In fact I'd point that out to her, if they can't play outside anymore, then you are going to have to let them play more boisterously inside because they have to be allowed to run about somewhere.

And the children shouldn't have to make a special trip to somewhere else to play outside when they have a garden they have just as much right to use at home on their doorstop.

Momieplum I do appreciate your point of view (and I'm probably over-invested in the thread too) I just feel really sad for the old lady. I think OP said she was in her late 70s. I work with elderly people and they're often very isolated, sidelined and treated as inferior citizens. Having some daily quiet time outdoors and a hobby like gardening can make massive difference to an elderly person's mental health. That is every bit as important as children wanting to play. I think doing up the communal garden was a really nice gesture, and must have taken a lot of effort and energy. She has as much right to sit in it peacefully and tend her plants, as the DC have to play. Compromise is what's needed and some reassurance from OP that her kids won't damage plants or treat the garden like a playground, and that noise won't be excessive or constant.

But I got the sense OP doesn't really care about the plants and feels her DC having fun is far more important than things being damaged. No wonder the neighbour has become possessive if she feels garden is not being respected. 'Equal use' of the garden does not mean banning the kids, but equally the kids shouldn't take over and spoil it for neighbour.

Kids CAN play quietly in gardens without damaging things, even very young children. I taught my DC to play quietly in a shared garden, mainly by keeping them occupied with toys and imaginative games, and getting them interested in growing things and watching wildlife. They befriended many of the other residents and it was lovely.

Elderly people often fear being knocked off balance if children run into them (you don't need to be frail to fracture a hip in your 70s). For that reason I always taught my DC not to run when elderly people were around, and not to scream and shout when others are trying to relax. There are so many places you can take kids where they can let off steam and run and screech and climb on things without disturbing anyone or damaging anything that's precious to anyone else... so I feel it's a bit mean and selfish to let them behave like that in a shared garden.

Re the landlord, since the garden was overgrown and neglected, I imagine he's delighted the tenant has tidied it up and planted things. She's added value to the property for free. Legally, if he wanted to tidy up the communal garden himself, he doesn't need permission from tenants, and he can expect them to take reasonable care of the improved garden, just as they should take care of fixtures and fittings. It's the same as if the building had a shared entrance hall and he decided to fit a new carpet, he has no legal obligation to warn them of this change or gain their consent. However, if they tread mud all over the new carpet or let the dog wee on it, he could claim part of the deposit to cover damages.

At the end of the day, even very young children need to learn not to pick other people's flowers or trample on plants. It's not unreasonable or unusual to have plants and flowers in a shared garden.

Tbh if it genuinely is a traditional front garden it's a bit tacky for either if you to be sitting out there- playing, lounging, running around screaming, whatever

YANBU at all and she shouldn't have done it really.
tell her your children have a right to play in the garden and suggest she pots her plants and flowers in a certain area and your dc can play on the rest.
If it was overgrown before, she may have seen it as an eye sore.
Maybe suggest to her that you grass it over and you mow and keep the grass nice.
With the best will in the world her plants will get broken, our dc used to wreak havoc in the garden when they were little, it's only nice now they are older.

I used to live in a flat with a large communal garden. The lovely family upstairs established a garden association with a committee that discussed big changes and the potential impact on the users, set up a fund for paying a gardener and instigated regular gardening days so everyone had a sense of ownership. Neighbour should have consulted with you first.

I'd be inclined to create your own play area to encourage your DCs to stay away from the more ornamental areas - put in a Wendy house and when the DCs are older a trampoline, you don't need to ask her as she's obviously ok with no consultation.

We have a shared garden and we don't allow kids to play unsupervised. Parents sit and chat and DC learn to respect that space. If they want to run and climb they go to the park. We pay for plants and like a PP said we have a gardening committee so we can all participate and enjoy it.

You don't have a right to use it to the extent that it annoys the other tennant and if it is noisy then you are affecting her "peaceful enjoyment" of her home. Just enjoy the garden, sit there with your kids and teach them about gardens and try to treat your neighbour with respect - you will be old too one day.

Hi sorry left the thread for a bit and came back to all this!

To the various people who are suggesting that I think it's ok to let my kids run riot and damage things etc- of course I don't! I supervise them carefully, and encourage them to play appropriately. However 1) they are 4 and 1.5 yrs and so however much I supervise them, occasionally accidents happen, and b) she has not just put in a few plants, but made the whole running/ playing space into an extended flower bed, which means we can't really use it as we would like. When the DC went in a couple of days ago and she shouted at DS, he was walking calmly down the stepping stones in the middle of the flower bed which I thought was totally reasonable.

There is no real play space at the back as it is owned by another property, so this is the main space. It can't really be divided for various reasons. She has lots of time to enjoy the garden- she is retired, and home all day- we are out all day at school/ nursery/ work

How do you feel about forfeiting the garden and asking for a rent reduction?

as for the noise issue- she wasn't complaining about the noise of them using hte garden, but the noise coming from our flat upstairs- this has been an ongoing thing- I posted about it a while back- eg yelling at me for tenderizing a chicken in the middle of the day, telling me we should change our kids bedtimes/ waking up times so they fit in with her schedule etc. They dont' make a lot of noise in the garden generally- DS 2 likes to wander round and pick up stones, DS 1 generally lies on his tummy and watches bugs. Sometimes they play hide and seek and we do an Easter egg hunt once a year. Nothing really out of hte ordinary, or at least I don't think so.

Honestly, try to tolerate until your kids get to the minimum trampoline age then get one. Contained happy children getting exercise. Grass will die underneath though.

climbingquickly
I dont' think our neighbor really fits the profile you are talking about. She is in her early seventies I think (possibly late sixties)- she is married, lives with her husband, runs an (illegal) business downstairs (I don't mean she is selling drugs btw! just that her home is not licensed for commercial activity- this has also been a source of conflict) and has lots of friends

Of course I wouldn't let my kids run around and risk knocking over an elderly woman! I don't know where you got the idea that I was letting them run around and screech etc ("you are being a bit mean and selfish to let them do that") - I supervise them carefully and let them play in a reasonable way in the shared space.

BULLY

YANBU

Keep a diary, speak to LL, keep a tape recorder/phone with you.

fucking cheeky cow!!!

Try banning her from the garden, see how she likes it.

More sensibly, speak with the landlord. She's being really unreasonable.

Try banning her from the garden, see how she likes it.

More sensibly, speak with the landlord. She's being really unreasonable.

A point to clarify perhaps?

Was the previous state of the garden one where she could sit out and enjoy it, or was the previous position that it was only really enjoyable by children?

Because I really can't work out whether this has gone from a communal area to one she wants just for her, or whether it has actually gone from an area used just by your DCs, to one just by her...slightly suspect the latter, which would make her stance rather less unreasonable.

Well if the kids can't run in their garden then they need more (noisy) toys to keep them occupied in the flat, right?

Ignore her
It is your garden and your kids can play in it
Don't let her bully you

Where has op said they are damaging her plants? A pp said to offer to replace if they DID get damaged, but nowhere has op said that her children have done so. Her son was shouted at for RUNNING in the garden, not for noise. And as the op said she is with them, how can the neighbour be hearing more noise than the op?

Some people just love to twist words, don't they!? OP has already accommodated this woman more than she deserves, how about the neighbour starts being accommodating too?

When you live in a flat, with people to all sides of you, there will be noise.

I expect he'd take a very dim view if your kids damaged it! I expect he wouldn't care, given the state op said it was in prior to this...

If your LL had done-up garden himself would you still feel it's ok to let your DC damage it?? Where did op say she let her dcs damage it?

But it wasn't their private wilderness... it's a shared GARDEN You are funny...no one said anything about a private wilderness, you added that yourself!