To ask if you have had any contact with benefit 'scroungers'

[JumpRope]

I utterly believe that we need to protect the poor, vulnerable and those unable to work and they should have help to live.

I grew up in a very rural area, fairly poor, very hard work for non land owners - workers werefarm labourers mainly. And there were many people leaving school in the 80s and 90s and then abusing the system - picking up the dole, laughing about it, straight to the pub until it ran out; I remember a dog called Giro. People just sold a bit of marijuana for extra work. After moving to a bigger town, I came across families like this, where the dad would start it off, and the children would just grow up and do the same.

There were jobs around. As students homes for holidays, we picked up work without trouble, and could have stayed on, got promotions etc.

How do you deal with these situations? How can we make sure we are not making cuts to those who desperately need it, whilst absolutely changing the mind sets of able bodied men (and women) who have grown up believing they are entitled to money for nothing.

BTW if you work 16 hours a week you should still get free prescriptions if you get WTC.

DOoin - we agree on something!

HB rent caps absolutely - I remember watching a program about a young single mother a few years ago (about teen pregnancies, not benefits etc) ...one of the things that made was she (or rather HB) were paying £400 or £500 a month rent to a private LL for a tiny studio flat on a sink estate in the NE...no-one not on HB would rent that flat at the price...

And a homes under the hammer program where the owner had bought to rent - when they told her she could get X amount rent... she said she had already struck a deal with the council paying £100 more a month rent. (And in typical HUH style they said congratulated her )

But I also saw a program where they were relocating people in London to eg the midlands etc because of HB caps...and they weren't happy....it was a few years ago - not sure if under the coalition... maybe it was even previous labour government....but I can see the logic. None of their flats were very nice, the LLs would struggle to rent to private tenants even in London...definitely not at the level of rent they were paying.

You were attacking the 'wonderful parents' who 'see very little of their children.'

Well obviously I have to brush up my writing style because that was very far from what I was doing. I was actually thinking of some wonderful parents in particular, who while both working full-time were always in tune with their children, something that I don't think I could have done.

Yes, I am not against housing benefit restrictions at all. In fact I never let to anyone on HB and don't know anyone who does in these bits of London. Why court problems when London is full of mobile young professionals who will just stay a year or two and want to rent not buy?

Yes, I hope IDS can try to make full time work pay but it's going to be a difficult job

I didn't mean cap benefit I meant cap rent to a fair rate for that particular house, as opposed to capping benefits to what is presumed to be a fair market rate.

In my town HB already is capped to the average rent for that size house in the whole town, however the areas in which most buy to letters buy are not nice areas and the value of the property is much lower than the average because of the area/crime rate etc however LLs can still charge the average rent for the town as a whole knowing that the tax payer will pick up the tab for them.

I'm lucky that my LL at least keeps his houses in a fair condition, but some of the places I looked at before moving here were absolutely shocking and yet still charging the same rent as not only my house but a house in the better areas in our town with the same number of rooms.

I'd also cap the number of buy to let rentals people are allowed to own. My LL has told me he deliberately buys houses in this area knowing they will likely attract DSS tenants so he needn't worry about his rent being payed, the council pay him directly. He's making his living off of the back of housing benefit. That, imo, is far worse than a single parent claiming benefits they are legally entitled to.

DOOIN - they are more or less the same thing - we won't pay more HB than X -the landlords who want to rent to HB tenants can't charge more than X. But agree more consideration should be taken to how much the actual property is worth...rather than a blanket amount. Wonder if it could be tied in with council tax bands...as they are (supposed) to also indicate the value of the property - not sure if they consider areas either though...

If what I undestand is true, the people on JSA have to spend I think 3 hours a day searching for jobs in order to fulfill the rquirements to claim.
The people around here - I mean the people in the flats opposite have been sat out all day.
Like they were yesterday and the day before.
Are there different rules for different people ?
How do people with no computer search online for jobs when you only get an hour per day at the library ?
How do you pay for photocopying cvs and stamps ?
My impression is it is left up to people who are able to pay. And are looking.
The people I see don't seem to bother about that.
Genuine workseekers seem to have everything stacked against them, but the people that I see don't seem to comply with rules and still claim.
It is so unjust.

I think if you capped benefits they'd keep the rent the same, tbf, these kinds of LLs have the monopoly on DDS tenants as regular property owners who rent out their own starter houses or buy just one property as a retirement plan don't have a mortgage agreement that allows them to let to DSS.

The overall effect on the benefits bill would be the same but I think by capping benefits as opposed to rent, you'd be leaving a lot of HB tenants in precarious positions.

Obviously renters who are able to pay their own rent would still not move into these houses but DSS tenants would still have no choice.

The whole rental market needs a shake up, imo. I think it's wrong that people are able to push up property prices (by keeping demand high due to to the number of buy to let buyers) and make a living off the fact that many of those less fortunate are now unable to afford to buy. I understand there is a need for certain number of rental properties and have nothing against small LLs who own one or two houses as an investment but it's gotten out of hand now. I'd guess that around 90% of houses in my area are owned by a handful of buy to let LLs, mainly ex council properties too.

I was on Universal Credit (which JSA is now in some areas) and had to do 7 hours a day not 3 emmeline Not sure how long JSA is but if it's 3 there's a massive jump from 3-7 isn't there

Grays. There is
so how do some people claim without doing 7 hours seeking ?
And they do.

If I'm being honest Emmeline I had to lie my arse off. I had to log on the universal job search each day and account for my hours so I'd put something like

12/5/15 - 2 hrs - job searched online using websites like indeed and jobs 4 u. applied for 4 jobs including x and x and x. Didn't find anything else suitable.

12/5/15 - 2h hrs- went to library and printed CV's out, then handed out round town to x and x and x

The hours had to add up to 7 each day.

They were extremely strict about it and I had to provide detail of what websites I used, who I applied for, how long I took.

I once missed a day because I was really ill but I'd forgotten to ring universal credit to tell them so (yes you have to do this, they tell you to class it as a job that you have to ring in and notify of appointments etc) so I had to tell them that my internet had been down so i'd wrote everything down on paper and uploaded the day after :(

I lied through my teeth and I felt bad for it but how is anyone suppose to job search for 7 hours per day?

Absolutely that is so shit.

I wonder how people on JSA actually afford to jobseek for all that time. Bus fare to interviews, cvs to be submitted, -how can it be done ?
It is 2.70 my nearest job centre. One way, but a day ticket costs 6.50.
Losing game.
What if you don't have a phone (I don't) I have a laptop with a dongle for 3GB a month.
Lots of people won't claim even though they are entitled to the money, if they can manage on savings, etc.That gets the numbers down.

So - how do all the people I see claim and don't search like other posters get their money, because they do

I think the thing that was more annoying for me is I'd just got out of a job, I was supposed to have had a job lined up but I was waiting for another opportunity that I knew was coming for me in the coming months, so because I had absolutely no money I had to sign on and jump through the hoops.

Luckily for me the job did come up so I didn't have to do it for that long but I feel so bad for the people who have to do it for months on end.

Oh if you don't have an internet connection or place to go online you're looked at as though you're a leper. I remember a lad next to me in tears because they said they were stopping his money because he hadn't job searched. He said he had he just hadn't been able to get online to put it on the job search thing. They were so nasty and horrible to him. Telling him he needs to get his arse up and go to the library - which would be a fair enough point had he not lived miles and miles away (I was having a good nosy at this convo as you can tell)

I did find that the advisors were much nicer to me once they saw my degree and job experience. I'd get the smug smile and 'what are you doing here? oh you'll not be here for long so this job search will do'. Which got my back up a bit.

To be fair to them they did ask if I had money to buy interview clothes and afford bus tickets but I've heard this isn't available to everyone

Grays - that poor lad.
Our libraries are all up for being closed - well, not all, only those in town are safe. Where rents are higher and only people in cars or can afford a bus can access the services.
I despair.

I would like, just to find out what it is like, want to try to sign on and report back on my experiences, good or bad.
Shall I ?
Will be absolutely honest.

I felt so bad for him but there was nothing I could do at all :(

It would be interesting to see the results if you did emmeline!

I haven't seen a library that allows users to sit there 7 hours a day online.

Aren't there job clubs they have to attend if they cannot job search? When my dad went on to JSA/New Deal/whatever it was 10 years ago he had to attend job clubs and courses. Mind you he cannot read or write and asking him to spend 7 hours a day job searching online would be akin to asking him to speak Swahili.

When I had dd1 and was a LP the first time round there were job skills courses etc. I attended some voluntarily because I was going out of mind sitting at home with a baby 24/7 and no adult contact and they paid childcare. I attended various courses until I found a job.

Grays thats awful. Shows we dont live in a classless society no matter how many politicians like to insist we do.

Some of the advisors were really nice but some helena were absolutely terrible :( I'm an assertive person but even I was made to feel small, and the thing is people are scared of arguing back because these people can stop your money so it's a case of 'yes miss no sir okay then'.

There needs to be a change

well, no-ones taken me up on my challenge. It would have been very interesting.
I was in professional occupation, MA qualified, etc. I would like to have seen if I would have been treated differently.
I know that I can switch from the Tyke accent to Public School and it does make people respond to me in a different way.
I haven't heard about job clubs, DOin. They are not advertised here, anyway. They sound better - do they pay for stamps/phone calls, etc ?

I said it'd be interesting emmeline

Straight away their whole demeanour changed with me. Instead of talking to me like I was thick I was then treated much more nicely.

But I'd end up seeing a different person each time and have to go through the same thing and have to explain to them no I don't need to do that course I have it at A Level, no I don't need to re-do my CV it's fine thank you I don't need the course.

Speaking of the CV, one of the advisors tried to force me to change mine. This is the one time I was classed as 'none compliant' because I point blanked refused to put something in they were telling me to. I can't remember what it was but it basically made me sound like a 14 year old wanting work experience. I ended up speaking with someone higher up and they 'let me' keep my original one. They acted like they were doing me a favour.

Dd1 is 11 now and I'm going back when she was new born, so they may not do them now.

I found them patronising tbh but can see how they'd be useful to someone with limited life skills and a poor education. There a CV and interview techniques short course including a helpful segment on why you should not list "drinking and clubbing" as a hobby or why you should not use text speak when applying for jobs via email and personal hygiene. All very common sense to you and I but might not be for someone with a different upbringing. The course tutors were all lovely and supportive and you see they felt embarrassed having to advise us that we should shower before and interview and clean our teeth

The IT courses were useful, they were skills I already had but I found those to be less patronising than the course on CV's and interviw skills and could easily see how others might need to learn these skills and the hair and beauty one was very good, that was like a taster course at a local college.

They never paid for stamps etc for me as I wasn't on JSA due to dd1's age, but some of the girls I was on the course with could claim back expenses from job searching and attending interviews and were awarded a grant for interview clothing.

My Dad did job club he had to attend daily and apply for jobs from there, so I assume they paid for stamps. Again this was 10 years ago and such things may not exist now. He found the whole thing stressful and humiliating. He's a builder by trade but had been laid of due to long term ill health, they were trying to get him to apply for jobs in MaccyDs and Topman. He was 54 at the time.

Plenty. One in particular comes to mind who had a kid every 4 years so 5 kids spanned 20 years. Had never worked, no intention to. But lets face it - 5 kids is a lot more work than most jobs. The thing that got me was that she knew she wouldn't be thrown out her flat because of the kids so didn't bother paying rent (it was some kind of community housing - I don't understand why rent wasn't just paid directly) so would pitch up in court every 6 months or so and the slate would be wiped clean. I have also known people who did cash in hand jobs whilst claiming. I think there are definitely people taking advantage of the situation and definitely those who think it is their 'right' to have benefits. And no I'm not a tory, I've just got a bit sick of those who haven't quite grasped that life can be hard and you just have to knuckle down and work.

Having said all that I do believe in having a safely net. I claimed JSA for 3 weeks once many years ago and for every person I know who has taken the p*ss with benefits I also know plenty who have lost jobs (redundancy, etc) and strongly believe its better to have a safety net that's abused by some than to let those that need it fall through and not get the support that's needed. That said everyone I can think of who lost a job had another within their notice period so didn't claim but they might have needed to.

I also think tax evaders are just as bad....

I don't remember if they were advertised. I asked if there were any courses that I could do while I was job searching. They never asked what skills I had or thought I needed to improve on they just signed me up for loads, one after the other, all but the hair and beauty one were on for 2 weeks for 3 or 4 mornings a week. The hair and beauty one was on for 12 weeks, 5 mornings a week. A maths course would have been useful and what I was hoping for. I'm useless at maths.

Tax evaders are, I agree.
I know someone who has never paid a penny in rent for 17 years.
She moves in, gets evicted and has another place lined up.
3 months at a time she lives, furnished basically for nothing - you don't get a final reminder for gas/elec for 3 months.
Never paid council tax/water.
pshaw