To ask if you have had any contact with benefit 'scroungers'

[JumpRope]

I utterly believe that we need to protect the poor, vulnerable and those unable to work and they should have help to live.

I grew up in a very rural area, fairly poor, very hard work for non land owners - workers werefarm labourers mainly. And there were many people leaving school in the 80s and 90s and then abusing the system - picking up the dole, laughing about it, straight to the pub until it ran out; I remember a dog called Giro. People just sold a bit of marijuana for extra work. After moving to a bigger town, I came across families like this, where the dad would start it off, and the children would just grow up and do the same.

There were jobs around. As students homes for holidays, we picked up work without trouble, and could have stayed on, got promotions etc.

How do you deal with these situations? How can we make sure we are not making cuts to those who desperately need it, whilst absolutely changing the mind sets of able bodied men (and women) who have grown up believing they are entitled to money for nothing.

No just people who were made redundant and than have struggled to find regular paid work. Life was ok till redundancy money ran out but now life is hard. No washing machine as it broke, no internet, mobile phones or even a computer. Yet she is expected to job search on line daily and library is a 3 mile round trip walk. Also now has to pay £10 per week council tax out of £71 and has to pay £5 for the train to sign on every 2nd week. Bus would be more convenient but it would be even more expensive.

I think the media, as in print and reality/documentaries on TV portray a certain image (thinking of the kind of dross that C5 puts out) they show one or two examples of scroungers without balancing their output. Couple that with people who throw out knew jerk reactions without taking any time to look for other evidence and the opinion that everyone on the dole is a scrounger becomes "fact"

fiveacres - was that particular piece of nasty cynicism directed at my post? I can assure you these kinds of situations are real. This poor woman was in tears this morning - frightened for her own and particularly her children's futures.

Others in this same church who will continue to struggle with benefit cuts are another single mum with 4 children (1 with SN and 1 who would really like to go to university in a couple of years), a couple with 4 children where both the mum and oldest child have severe MH problems, a couple with 2 adopted children with complex SEN and EBD and a single woman on JSA who has been looking unsuccessfully for work for over a year.

Living the imaginary life of Riley they are not!

No. Although I don't think I ever met anyone who only has benefits as their income. Unless you count my parents, who are pensioners.

I agree with parsnip. I would far rather pay tax (more than I do now in fact) on what I earn and know I live in a society where the poorest and most vulnerable are looked after than react to anecdotes about a few scroungers. I would more than happy if there was a 1 in 10 scrounger ratio and know 9 families in need were getting what they needed. And I bet the real figure is far, far, far lower than 1 in 10. I don't believe people see benefits as a lifestyle, except where people have lost all hope and see no other future. And I would fortunes in tax to eradicate that.

There's a Mum at school who told me she's never worked and has no intentions of doing so. She's in her mid forties now and I've no idea if she claims benefits but I heard from several people she was a shoplifter. She'd tell her kids she was going to work so they'd be staying at her Mum's while she went and did her 'job' of stealing to order. Don't know if she's still doing it.

A girl I left school with purposely got herself pregnant so she didn't have to work and she got herself a council house.

And wages are way, way too low. That's the bloody issue. Not that benefits are too high.

But we have a Tory government for 5 more years. Millionaires telling us the poor have too much money. Fucking brilliant.

Wasn't there a dog called Giro in Shameless? Or am I imagining that you've nicked that joke?

And No, is the answer to your question.

Yes, I know two families like that. One I have some sympathy for, because if can see that they have grown up surrounded by nothing else, and it's normal to them. They'd have had to be very intelligent and very motivated to completely remove themselves from the cycle without any support and most people just aren't like that. My sympathy is limited though, because they are deliberately living apart so the mum can claim as a single parent and the dad can have as much freedom as he wants, and that is just plain wrong.

The other I have no sympathy for, because the benefits lifestyle and the lying, manipulation and general negativity that surrounds it is a conscious choice, despite there being other reasonable options available.

I do know of some people that fit the 'benefit scrounger' stereotype, in fact it is my Ex's family. They have girl's leaving school asap, getting pregnant for the flat... their parents know the 'system' inside and out, and know how to get the maximum out of it. They never work, and once they get older, they typically get put on (or used to get put on) DLA... because they have chronic health problems, typically caused by weight gain or mental health problems. But despite witnessing all this, I wouldn't remove welfare. They are a small minority in a sea of people that actually need the help. Most claimants are working anyway... like myself.
I actually feel more sorry for them than anything... they don't have a good quality of life, they have no aspirations, they can't afford to splash out, have lovely holidays or buy lots of treats through the year.

THIS is why we need to invest more in education, and have jobs at the end of it. We also need to realise that the children should be supported, despite the faults of their parents. We need to break the cycle of benefit dependence... all we are doing is shaming them, and that doesn't work... it just creates bitterness and anger, which leads to a host of other problems.

I have never come across a theoretical benefit scroungers, personally. But then a lot of my friends and family are higher rate tax payers.

In any case, unless you have access to someone's bank statements, you know nothing about their finances in reality.

FGS these fucking threads are the dizzy limit.

Yes I know plenty, a lot of them family members actually

This, exactly. Both DH and I have close family members who happily defraud the benefits system. I wouldn't know about the circumstances of my friends and acquaintances most seem to be wealthy.

"Unemployment benefit for a 40 year old is 73 quid a week, where do you get 22k a year from?"

God only knows, UsualSuspect but that's what she tells DH that she gets! She has a son who's about 12 who doesn't go to school. She receives carer's allowance for him. She's also in receipt of housing benefit, council tax benefit and some kind of disability benefit for herself, because she says she's unable to work due to mental health issues - but then she also claims to be home educating her son. She says £22k is not enough!

Hang on katykuns, the days are long, long gone when being pregnant got you a flat. It simply doesn't happen when there are 300 people after one accommodation. And those at the top of the housing list are people with health problems not pregnant teenagers.

I agree with parsnip as well. I have met people who have/are abusing the system, but I am glad we live in a country where if the worst did happen, me and my children wouldn't end up starving on the streets.

There will always be people, no matter what the set up, who will lie and deceive to make things work better for them. Getting rid of the system isn't the answer all we will do is hurt the Most vulnerable members of our society

I know small business owners who do lots of cash deals.
Plumbers who have £20k cash in a tin under the bed from cash in hand work.

A know an arsehole running a tax avoidance scheme who lives the high life as do his clients.

I know a millionaire who raided the pension fund of one of his many companies - the govt picked up the tab on that one.

I have also come across a few in my time. Remember being in mothercare once and heard one woman say to another to have a few more kids and she'd live really well on the social.

I know a few people who have done this.

One family member worked until she was about 23, then had kids (single mother 3 times over - differebt dads - not in a relationship etc), was then job hunting for 6 months before an old back injury flared up.

This back injury apparently means she can't work...and hasn't worked for the past 20 odd years. Believe me when I say she could work, she is perfectly capable, just lazy. Faking this illness is practically a full time job!!

I also know people from school who have had child after child so they don't have to work (every 4 years so that as soon as ins goes to school, another is born).

It does happen. But I do also know people who genuinely need benefits. I really don't know what the solution is.

Yes I know a few, dare I say so on mn ! Both myself and DH work, yet do not have the same disposable income as those we know on benefits. It may not be fashionable to say so but I not only agree with the benefit cap I think it's too high. Awaiting abuse !!!!

I have met some and unfortunately related to some
BIL has never worked from leaving school he has a sideline in knock offs and dope dealing to maintain his income. His partner who lives with him and their two children is on the tenancy agreements etc as "mother of my children"
His younger sister much admired how easy his lifestyle was and told us that she couldn't wait to leave school to be just like him. She is now a single mother of three with council house and benefits to boot never worked from she left school the father of all get children lives with his mum and is ready to father the next one when the youngest turns five to stop her having to work.
Their eldest brother my husband owns his own business and works hard for his money
I'm I jealous of his siblings no not a bit

My parents are wealthy and have claimed benefits I don't approve of that aren't means tested because of age and disability. I don't approve of that at all and class it as scrounging.

But I all know plenty of people at the other end of the scale who were abusing benefits like single mothers, and incapacity benefit. Interestingly though most of them have come off benefit since 2010. And despite knowing plenty of people who were in the past I can hand on heart say I don't know anybody who is now.

In fact, it's been surprising how many people I know have undergone Lazurus like recoveries from 'severe depression' since they realized it wouldn't get them long term benefits any more post 2010. This very upset me as I also suffer from very bad depression. I have only used sickness benefits once for a short period and went back to work when I was recovered without prompting. It did shock me when I was on them (under Labour) that there was no real investigation of claimed illness, no psychiatric assessment, no checking up on changes in health status. You could literally just go to your doctor and say 'I'm depressed' and walk out with a sick note.

I tried to follow up my depression with counselling and trying to access other psychiatric services. Some people in the medical profession seemed almost to be surprised that I was doing so because it was just accepted I would take a sick note and some tablets and be satisfied.

I met several people via support for depression who were written off sick long term. I've tried never to do that as I find complete inactivity and just staying in with no purpose makes it work. But I understood that for some people that wouldn't be the way through depression and they may be too ill for work. And I sincerely believed these people were ill.

But quite a number of them, once they realized they weren't going to get benefits any more, just dropped the pretence. These are people I'd confided in about my own health and thought they understood and they'd looked me straight in the eye and lied.

I grew up in an agricultural area where many people worked on the land on a casual basis. It was worth their while because they claimed benefits as well, so the cash wages were a top up, not instead of benefits.
That was standard practice.

*Makes it worse, not work.

Why on earth did the church going woman have eight children under the age of 11, so pretty continuous pregnancies, if six of them had special needs? That is really shit parenting, in my opinion.