To ask if you have had any contact with benefit 'scroungers'

[JumpRope]

I utterly believe that we need to protect the poor, vulnerable and those unable to work and they should have help to live.

I grew up in a very rural area, fairly poor, very hard work for non land owners - workers werefarm labourers mainly. And there were many people leaving school in the 80s and 90s and then abusing the system - picking up the dole, laughing about it, straight to the pub until it ran out; I remember a dog called Giro. People just sold a bit of marijuana for extra work. After moving to a bigger town, I came across families like this, where the dad would start it off, and the children would just grow up and do the same.

There were jobs around. As students homes for holidays, we picked up work without trouble, and could have stayed on, got promotions etc.

How do you deal with these situations? How can we make sure we are not making cuts to those who desperately need it, whilst absolutely changing the mind sets of able bodied men (and women) who have grown up believing they are entitled to money for nothing.

If she thinks that she makes more money from cleaning than accounting, maybe it's for the best she isn't an accountant!!

Yes I am related to five.

They are openly boastful about never working, always on the scrounge, charming and amusing company (usually stoned and pissed) and collect dogs and horses and children, none of whom ever seem to have enough to eat judging by the fact my DM is always enabling feeding and clothing them.

They have no apparent health issues when it comes to getting themselves to the boozer or indeed the other end of the country for free holidays but won't work. They are very proud of screwing the system.

Luckily I rarely see them and the majority of people I know who claim benefits are not like this.

But I know it happens, yes.

" A cleaner I know, she's intelligent and could work as an accountant if she wanted to. She chooses to clean for people cash in hand, that way she gets HB, pays less council tax and whatever else she can claim. "

you mean she has her accountancy qualifications? I doubt that little tale somehow.

"Before you say I'm different, that I'm somehow 'deserving' that doesn't matter. I'm still being subject to cuts in money and services and nobody is challenging that because of the scrounger rhetoric perpetuated by things like this thread."

This.

She does have accountancy qualifications. She doesn't want to be tied to a job in an office.

I think there is also a bit of a perspective difference. You say 'workshy' I say 'depressed'. I do believe that a lot of people who are long term out of work or working few hours and not trying to increase them due to the benefits trap have some element of underlying depression.

How much is determined manipulation of the system by wily cheats (a teeny tiny amount and mostly fraudulent) Vs the despondency of people without the skills and confidence, wellbeing and know how to improve their lives?

Unemployment is debilitating - it's hard not to take constant rejection personally, the ups and downs of opportunities lost etc grinds confident and educated professionals down, what must it do to people who've been judged and told they're next to worthless their whole lives?

sure guirado, I believe you.

It's unfair to say "back in the 80's/90's...."

Back then, the government (Conservative) was worried that the sky-high unemployment figures were making them look bad so they actively encouraged moving people onto 'the sick'.

Hey presto - lower unemployment figures... but people written off from working for life.
Not such a problem when there are no jobs around; but as the country slowly recovered from a thorough Thatchering and employment went up, governments have been trying to unpick this.

I used to work for benefits agency- we saw swathes of people who were :
-living with partner but claiming 'he just popped around'
-were working' but was just doing a favour for a friend'
-travellers who never registered their kids and just showed the whole communities' kids to prove their entitlements.

I left the job in the end as it made me flick from being a leftie to much more centre and believing that the welfare state was not a safety net- just a way of improving your lifestyle for so many.
I felt sorry for the 20-30 percent who were genuine as they were all tarred with the same brush

Please be very careful before judging others, everyone's life is different, we all have our own pressures and stresses and we all react different,to them.

I am currently on benefits, my son is autistic and he needs more support than I can cope with while also working too. I have dyspraxia and as such have poor executive function, everything is an effort for me but you wouldn't know this by just looking at me. I am a qualified nurse and midwife but choose NOT to work any longer in these professions, not because I get more money in tax credits, housing benefit etc but because my son does not sleep, I am tired much of the time and I couldn't live with myself in someone died in my care as a result. You would not know this by looking at me.

Despite this my exSIL thinks I am a "benefit scrounger", I beleive the term she used to describe me was "benefits queen!" She could be in here bemoaning the fact that I am a qualified nurse but choose to be in benefits or in a low paid job for the tax credits etc. The fact is that she doesn't live my life or cope with the impairments I do.

Incidentally if you were to see my son you might wonder WHY I am not working, he is lively, engaging, chatty and happy, his autism is high functioning. Spend a few days with us and you might see why I don't work. I have tried combining single parenthood with the care of my son and work and it all goes to pot as soon as I add in work. I have over 30 years experience behind me though and am well qualified so will be able to go back to work when things are more settled. I won't though, go back to nursing while life is so stressful.

And the problem is, even if all you have is a 'bad back', you're not going to be that employable anyway.

A relative of mine gave up work 30 years ago with a 'bad back' - 90% of the time he is fine and you'd mutter about scroungers, but every couple of months he is laid up in bed for a week or so, unable to move. Not something an employer would put up with for very long.

I wouldn't mind if he didn't read the bloody Mail and moan about benefit scroungers

It's true that the benefits trap does exist and a lot of people have done the maths and worked out that they would be no better off working, so they don't.

However, here's a crazy thought. Maybe the solution for that is, rather than cutting benefits and applying sanctions which will leave thousands of people in a terrible situation, perhaps make the minimum wage an actual living wage which would be more appealing than being on benefits.

Tax credits wouldn't need to exist, as it is 'the squeezed middle' are subsidising low income families and individuals, if there was a decent living wage that wouldn't need to happen.

I know it's all pie in the sky though. The Tories would never implement this as it would mean less profit for the big boys, aka their mates.

On the subject of bad backs, I have multiple slipped discs - and swallow a cocktail of drugs everyday in order that I can work part time. Also the bloody wonderful NHS gave me acupuncture which really helped. A nearby neighbour has a bad back, hasn't worked a day in her life, has managed to carry 5 dcs, gets everything for nowt and drives a car(not mobility) with a private plate. I must admit that as she drives past I often wonder who the mugs are.

tilliebob, there is no such thing as 'multiple slipped discs' as it is not possible for a disc to 'slip' out from between vertebrae - sorry. How do you know that your neighbour is not in as much pain as you are? and 'gets everything for nowt'?

And 'bad back' could mean anything, it could also be a term a person is using in order to not tell people they have something a bit more embarrassing, like diverticulitis. The treatment you receive for a condition may be different depending where in the country you live.

I think this is one of the reasons why the fit for work shambles has caused such problems - people's health fluctuates, and we probably don't see these people 'out and about' on their bad days when they can't get out of bed. So of course they are more visible when they have better days. It's impossible to say what a person with X disability/condition should look like and how it will manifest.

I have 5 prolapsed discs, thanks, I don't need to share my medical history with you. I also am not going to put myself or my neighbour but I can assure you that they are playing the system in good style. I know lots of genuine people in need who have to fight for every penny they get and are genuinely crapping themselves about what is going to happen over the next 5 years but this couple are not in that position.

'prolapsed discs' OK.
Odd that you know so much about your neighbour's finances tho tillie.

Yeah it is eh, I'm not going into it to out either her or myself. The op asked do you have contact with any benefit scroungers. Yeah, I do. They do exist despite many people pretending they don't. Thankfully that family could be relations are the only ones playing the system. It does annoy the hell out of me though. I'm telling my kids they need to work to pay their way in life and they just say "Well what about..."

I have come across people who claim quite a lot of money relatively speaking because they are, under the current system, entitled to claim it. I feel that the amount they are able to claim is wrong. That doesn't make them personally scroungers, any more than I am for sending my child to state school when we could afford private.
I have issues with the system, not people.

I haven't RTFT so sorry if I am repeating.
The system is wrong because it encourages claimants. Or used to. I know loads of women who work part-time precisely because under the current system they would be no better off working FT. They purposely keep their hours low and refuse overtime.

I have just read back and few posts and seen the comments about the accountant. It reminds me of when I knew things had gone wrong, about 10 years ago under Labour. I go to seminars and get tips on how to reduce tax which used to be about complicated things like entrepreneurs relief for CGT. When I went to a seminar that talked about the various benefits that well-heeled people could winkle out of the system then I knew that change was needed.

"I don't need to share my medical history with you"

Which, incidentally, is another reason why people who claim to know the medical history of others should consider that they might not know anything near the truth.

'bad back' could even be mental health issues, given the stigma around MH that still exists.

There is literally NO help available for anyone wanting to get back into work after a period "genuinely" unable to work (whatever that means - but, as an example, someone who has been a carer claiming their paltry Carer's Allowance for several years or someone who has recovered from poor health) They just turn up at the jobcentre, sign on, and immediately the hassle starts. No guidance, no actual support. It's awful.

Ok, so if tax credits and the 16 hour rule is a problem, what is the solution to low wages?

How do we 'punish' those who are less deserving without impacting on the lives of everybody else?

I've never come across benefits scroungers. As far as job seekers' allowance goes, you are treated with such contempt by job centres etc, I really don't believe anyone bar a very small minority of people would choose it. I spent about 4 weeks claiming it a few years ago when I was inbetween jobs and it was a depressing experience. However, it didn't do me any harm to gain some sort of insight into how the other half live.

As an example, you have to sign on at a certain time. To the minute. Bad luck if you can't drive, or the buses/trains don't run at that time. Our job centre is in the next town. Bad luck if you have kids (and before anyone says you have to make yourself available for work - presumably most people would only pay for childcare if they actually get a job).

.

A proper job-mentoring service would go a long way to both help those who are desperately trying and pinpoint any malingerers Seffina. But it would be slightly more expensive than the current Kafkaesque 'sanctions and apathy' regime.

But it won't happen, because differentiating between the supposedly "deserving" and "undeserving" isn't the POINT of Conservative social security policy. The point is to terrorise everyone.