To ask if you have had any contact with benefit 'scroungers'

[JumpRope]

I utterly believe that we need to protect the poor, vulnerable and those unable to work and they should have help to live.

I grew up in a very rural area, fairly poor, very hard work for non land owners - workers werefarm labourers mainly. And there were many people leaving school in the 80s and 90s and then abusing the system - picking up the dole, laughing about it, straight to the pub until it ran out; I remember a dog called Giro. People just sold a bit of marijuana for extra work. After moving to a bigger town, I came across families like this, where the dad would start it off, and the children would just grow up and do the same.

There were jobs around. As students homes for holidays, we picked up work without trouble, and could have stayed on, got promotions etc.

How do you deal with these situations? How can we make sure we are not making cuts to those who desperately need it, whilst absolutely changing the mind sets of able bodied men (and women) who have grown up believing they are entitled to money for nothing.

I don't know any.

I know a fair amount of people receiving some form of benefit, but I don't know any 'scroungers'. Or maybe it's just because I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I know the ins and outs of anyones relationships, home life, work ethic or mental health state. Because I don't live with them, don't spend 24 hours a day with them, don't know the intimacies of their day to day life. Because I'm not them.

Fucking disgraceful thread. Serves one good purpose though - the spreadshit is bursting at the seams with complete and utter wankers.

Yep. I know a scrounger. My niece. I love her but sadly she has no work ethic whatsoever. Her and her now ex actually got pregnant because they thought it was a surefire way to get their own housing. Sadly it wasn't and they ended up living with me for a year - which included the first 8 months of my wonderful great nephew's life. And then even when they did get allocated a flat (you know, no carpets or curtains, someone else's dogshit in their overgrown patch of garden kind of flat), they then decides to to claim she lived there alone to get more benefits. She got caught to the tune of £12k. On top of that, although she was receiving HB, she was in major arrears with her rent too. So now she's back at her dad's with her 6yo son, still mithering about the fact she can't get her own place. She doesn't drive so any job she gets she's totally reliant in public transport. This often means she can't be arsed to get up early enough to catch the bus and inevitably after a few months, she'll jack the job in. I love the bones of her, but she's lazy with a terrible sense of entitlement.

It's very hard to get a job these says. Most administration jobs have hundreds of applicants.

Anyway this judgy mean spirited thread is full of the type of hideous views I despise And seems to be par for course for MN these days. Time for a break. I avoid the Daily Mail comments for the same reasons so why subject self to it on MN?

exLT What do you define as disgraceful? The fact that there are many people claiming fraudulently or that the situation of people claiming fraudulently is being discussed?

Also wondering where all the jobs for these "workshy scroungers" going to come from. My sister has applied for loads of jobs without success. Once she turned 60 she thought great I can work 16 hours on min wage (those are the types of jobs around) but even with tax credits she would be worse off and would have work related expenses on top.
o and she has a flatscreen telly only because she was given one.
Nasty goady thread which I really must now hide.

The fact that people are posting about other peoples circumstances as if they know everything about them. When they don't.

Now if someone came on and said "Me. I'm a benefit scrounger. I fiddle the system and this is how I do it" I'd believe them. But posting about someone else? Not so much. The arrogance is outstanding.

Or possibly if someone came on and posted "I knew someone, I reported them, they were investigated and found guilty, jailed/fined/punished" then maybe.

Otherwise, I'll just stick to my wankers theory. And thank God I'm not like them, getting my kicks from posting attention seeking judgemental and most likely made-up Daily Mail style bollocks posts on MN.

Who in their right mind would choose to live on £73 per week. I am baffled by the vast number of people apparently making that a lifestyle choice.

I have, I grew up in a very poor area with few jobs but close to a major city. When I left school I was lucky enough to land an apprenticeship nearby and then got a job with a 3.5 hour round commute by train. The group of friends I ended up in amongst laughed because their benefits were worth more than my wages by the time I'd paid my bills and taxes none of them had a job in the 5 years our group was together.

I'm on Income Support now as my DH was diagnosed with severe depression and buggered off 300 miles away and I had to give up my job as the hours don't work without childcare at home.

I'd love to be able to work for my money but I can't say I'm not grateful for benefits and yes as low earners beforehand I am better off which annoys me!

My cousin is 44 years old. He has never worked. He has been on the methadone project for 20 years. His wife is his carer. They have 7 kids. He has a car paid for by his "disability". He lives in a 4 bedroomed detached house. He and his wife have gym memberships paid for by the state as an antidote to their depression. The whole family are given a free holiday every year. He has fibre broadband and each of the kids have a laptop funded by the government.
And he has a little job on the side(cash in hand) topping things up.

Lovely.

No, really. These are members of my close and immediate family. See them every month, christmas together, telephone calls every few days. It would be massively unlikely that all of them are concealing a disability or mental health issue from us.

Plus they are for the most part open about their active choice not to work. Those non working relatives who have discussed their choice with us are of the mindset that benefits are a choice. As in, the govt invites you to choose if you prefer to work, or to take benefits to live. There is nothing wrong with taking benefits, because they are offered to you - they're there for the taking. The system invites you to opt for that lifestyle. And if you prefer to stay home with your dog, and to do lots of short courses at the local higher education establishments to keep you occupied, that's a valid life choice.

I would rather they chose to work, because that would leave more money in the system for the relatives I have who are elderly, or who do have difficulties that limit their ability to work. But they don't want to and they don't see it as their responsibility to.

Several young couples pretending not to be together so the woman can claim single parent benefits. They feel confident they won't be reported as no one wants the children to suffer.

Actually the situation I mentioned I absolutely do know the ins and outs of the situation, it was someone close to me who very openly discussed it, she actually believed it was a legit way to get round the system and gave advice to other friends about it. She actually is a lovely person but such a strange ethic.

I believe there are many fraudulent claims and I think if I know of several in my small group then there must be a huge number countrywide.

My ex whilst I was living with him was claiming housing benefit. I was only 18 and completely believed he was paying the rent himself. He was off sick through a work related injury, totally above board, but had continued claiming for almost two years afterwards in spite of earning £20k a year, that was 18 years ago. I have no idea how long he carried on with that.

Oh good, so you reported both of them then, yes? Because of course if you didn't then you are no better than them. Complicit in fraudulent behaviour. Not really a good thing to be judgemental about.

I have never seen anyone on MN claim these people do not exist. But statistically, they are a tiny number and no I don't believe the figures are underestimated! This thread shows that the govt. have no need to embellish the figures as there is plenty of hate already. And it is an economic fact that tax evasion costs the government more than benefit fraud. And also that there a\re far more people ^not claiming what they are entitled to than those claiming fraudulently.

That's not to say it'snot a problem, but it's about priorities. And I believe that many of the scroungers that are being talked about here are difficult to help. They have been out of work for so long, have no skills, have lots of middle class people telling them they are worthless and useless. This is why the govt. have schemes like free childcare hours for 2 year olds - not to give even more money to scroungers, but to try and help their children to escape a cycle of poverty and benefits.

We have to find these people and help them BEFORE they become dependant on benefits, we have to make them feel like they can be an important part of society. At school, we push the 'clever' kids to university when we should put more focus on helping each individual child find their skills and talents but the schools have to be so exam focussed that these children can get left behind, especially if they have very little support at home.

But the only answer that we have is to cut the benefits of the millions of people who are not just entitled to them, but genuinely in need of them, in order to try and stop a few people (some of whom know how to play the system, so may not be affected) from claiming. IMO, that is like putting your finger on a burst pipe, it might stop the water, but it hasn't solved the problem.

As for those (or just the one person?) who think that tax avoidance and tax evasion are fair game, well, that might break talk guidelines. The fact you think it's ok because 'everyone is at it' - can you not engage that line of thinking further and perhaps wonder if that's what some people may think about lying about their partner moving in. MPs are claiming thousands for second homes, moats, bath taps, and you can't imagine why somebody might think that not reporting a change in circumstances in order to gain a few quid a week might think that 'everyone is at it?'

In either case, you have money that by rights should belong to the govt. I don't care how much tax somebody pays, it's wrong. Tax avoidance is wrong. Benefit fraud is wrong. But I don't believe that cutting benefits is the answer to tackling that fraud. Unless all it does is make the amount lost seem smaller.

We have a benefit fraud hotline, where's the one for tax evasion? Or are we only encouraged to spy on our neighbours when they're too poor to fight back?

Yep.
A group of friends that didn't work for about 10 years.
They could work, but chose to instead live in their little bedsits getting stoned all day every day.
Most of them have either grown up or been forced into work now.
I also lived in a very nasty estate where there were only 2 working households out of approx 100. They were mostly capable of working. They chose not to.
They just knew the system very very well.

I agree that it's woefully under reported.

It's also fair to feel aggrieved without having first hand knowledge. I don't have to absolutely know the entire ins and outs to know it's a big problem in this country. Just as I don't need to personally know someone who drives without insurance to know that it happens etc.

I just feel that whenever this type of thread occurs,the ones who feel aggrieved are somehow made to feel that it's completely misplaced. It's unfair behaviour. As I have said,I utterly have sympathy for those genuinely unable to work through physical or otherwise illness. Ditto those genuinely struggling to survive through unfortunate circumstances. But to seemingly dismiss what a huge problem this is (not directed at any one) baffles me. And I'll still warrant (again, admittedly unfounded and no stats/links) that the figure is higher than 1/2%)

All the MPs were in it together when claiming their expenses, they were all happy to do it and I'm sure they all shared information on how best to get round the system. Probably quite openly.

Disability comes in all shapes and sizes, it is very diverse and even one diagnosis could show differently in two different people. Most people claiming benefits are genuine, but society is very much on the lookout for benefit fraud and I think we sometimes see it when it isn't there.

Epic rant, sorry!

exLtEveDallasNoBollocks

I can assure you, I for one have not made my story up. I don't feel the need to make up bullshit.

And I do know 'something' about the benefit scroungers I mentioned.

I am ashamed to admit that I didn't report them. But I was young and heavily influenced by them. They are my brothers.

And the unpleasant one? The one who would scorn you and mock you as 'petty bourgoisie' for working? He sexually abused me when I was 10, as part of an initiation into a gang. He was and still can be violent and not above using his fists on any woman, let alone one who shopped him to the authorities.

So save your judgemental attitude for someone whose life you do know something about.

I wonder what your life experience is if you have never ever met anyone claiming benefits as a life style choice? Easy to say report but then harder if it is a relative, friend even neighbour... and just like the MPs expenses - if 'everyone' is doing it it becomes 'normal'....

In relation to what mamadoc says - a few years ago there was a tv program on c4 I think - benefits 40s style or something - it was very interesting. There was a woman who hadn't worked for a number of years -iirc 'on the sick' and was really negative, anti everything they suggested. They helped her (in person) to find clothes, get training and find a job. When they went back a few months later she was working and a different person. They also had a guy in a wheelchair - now would never be expected to work - but they found him work experience and he loved it. (there were also sadder things eg like an old guy having to sell things and someone who got nothing because they hadn't paid into the system.) But the point was everyone was expected to work, a different mentality and the help to get work was individually tailored to the people, they were supported along the way. I think it is too late for that now - too many people on benefits, too expensive, too many boxes to tick. But maybe we should be doing more along those lines... generic things like benefit sanctions are there to stop the pissing taking - but sadly the ones who know the system best are not the ones that suffer most.
I said up thread I didn't get the help I 'should' have done when I was seriously ill and that was 20 yrs ago (so I really know that people in genuine need with no experience don't know and understand the system and do struggle, it is complicated and don't get as much as those who do know). I also listed real life experiences - no doubt about them -which goes to explain why it is so complicated and difficult.
I will say for myself having no choice but to go and work was probably a good thing. Immediately after getting out of hospital I couldn't go out- I spent a lot of time sitting and thinking and those thoughts turned increasingly black. (I really didn't want to live, it was pointless and too much of a fight - so thinking up ways to kill myself that wouldn't upset
anyone else - make it look like an accident - couldn't jump in front of a tube, what about the driver, all the people suffering delays, the mess for someone to clean up. Overdose what about who found me? etc.) I did also get drugs and counselling but work was a distraction and if I had had the right benefits and had been able to continue sitting and thinking I don't think I would be alive today.

Sadly working in the nhs i see alot. But its not my job to judge. I just treat. It was very hard to say nothing when one guy says he lives in spain but cones back to sign on. One even asking my collegague for a letter for the job centre saying the pain in her feet means she cant work and therefore needs disability allowance! Her problem had been corrected by insoles and my colleague had discharged her. However, i also see the flip side of those who dont claim enough.

I've known people who have 'fiddled the system' so to speak in the past, yes. One in particular had a partner that worked FT for a little over the national average and she claimed benefits as though she were a single parent. She claimed he only stayed while he visited the children for two days a week so got away with it. They also lived in a council house so rent was very low, obviously got council tax paid for and were pretty well off as a result. I don't know if she's still doing this, she'd been at it for four years when I knew her but we haven't spoken for four years... She's not the only example I know of that has done that but if you get caught or someone grasses you up the repercussions just do not seem worth it. I couldn't be dealing with the constant peering out of the windows to check no ones spying on you and whatever else, doesn't seem worth it. I've known a couple of people 'on the sick' when they aren't sick as well.

But most people I know who claim benefits are actually working, they just don't earn enough. I agree with trying to put measures into place to stop people fiddling the system (not sure how, mind...) but I'd much rather have the benefit system in place for those in need than not and have them homeless and starving as they would have done not so long ago...

Threads like this actively make my life worse.
Because you are all sitting here comparing gossipy horror stories without a shred of evidence - how do you REALLY know the precise details of another person's life - it distorts perceptions. Studies have actually been done on this. People surveyed believed that up to HALF of benefit claimants are on the fiddle. Have none of you read about welfare reform?

Before you say I'm different, that I'm somehow 'deserving' that doesn't matter. I'm still being subject to cuts in money and services and nobody is challenging that because of the scrounger rhetoric perpetuated by things like this thread.

yes I have met people who have never worked and have no intention of doing so.
However, this was only a very few people. In 30 years.
Any system is open to abuse, that doesnt mean shut down the system does it?

A cleaner I know, she's intelligent and could work as an accountant if she wanted to. She chooses to clean for people cash in hand, that way she gets HB, pays less council tax and whatever else she can claim.

IIRC, the DWP has already announced that they will be putting caps on a scheme that helps employers fund things that make accessibility better for disabled people returning to work. Which could be anything from ramps and handrails to equipment to enable somebody who is blind to do admin work.

How is that helpful for the people who 'genuinely' need it? How is that tackling the benefit scrounger problem.

Because they're not arsed about these problems, they just want to save money, wherever it comes from.

I understand people being angry, and it's good - we need to be angry. But let's direct our anger towards those in power who are affecting the lives of millions of actual, real, genuine people in need rather than a few people who play the system (especially as 'everyone is at it' WRT to tax avoidance).