To think that all the people who say "fold your buggy" are being a bit daft?

[Pyjamaramadrama]

I regularly read threads on here about buggies on buses and they get quite heated.

The consensus seems to be that buggies should be folded.

Before anyone says anything I absolutely think that wheelchair users and other disabilities need to take priority for obvious reasons.

However the type of prams for newborns would be nearly impossible for a parent on their own to fold while holding a baby and possibly shopping etc. it's much easier with a toddler who can stand and a stroller which can be easily folded. But you simply cannot put a newborn in a stroller. I'm pregnant with #2 and I've searched for the most compact, easy to fold pram, but I still wouldn't fancy trying to board a bus with a floppy newborn while trying to fold pram and negotiate my bags.

Lucky for me I drive but I can remember being in the predicament with my firstborn of having to get the bus on older style buses and I simply couldn't do it, I had a lie flat pram where the pram needed to be removed to fold the chassis, packs of nappies and formula and newborn ds, I had no Internet access at the time so no online shopping and I ended up in tears once trying to board a bus and dropping everything and the driver and passengers just staring at me.

Also perhaps it is just where I live but all the new buses now have buggy and wheelchair zones so there is room for everyone most of the time.

As I'll say again wheelchair users do come first as ultimately a parent could probably walk if necessary, but why do some people seem to be so against anything which makes new parents lives easier? Maybe they've forgotten what it's like or haven't had to manage the bus alone with newborn.

Oh and my parents and grandparents reckon it was a nightmare with the old buses before buggy zones as they simply couldn't board the bus with a pram.

I was a buggy user in the 1980s. There were no buggy spaces - or wheelchair spaces come to that - on buses, it had to be folded and put on the luggage rack at the front of the bus. What you did if you were disabled and a wheelchair user I have no idea.

I had a Maclaren Dreamer which required complicated twisting of knobs and releasing of catches to fold the damn thing, which was fairly impossible whilst holding a baby and perhaps a small bag of shopping at the same time. I didn't drive at the time and so only ventured out on the bus a couple of times before I gave it up as a bad idea unless I had DP or DM with me to help. I remember having to lay DS on the pavement as I couldn't hold him and fold the buggy at the same time. Grim. Even more grim when I was trying to do it whilst a bus driver was waiting for me and rolling his eyes.... And not helping.

With the modern buses these days and the spaces provided for buggies and wheelchairs I wouldn't fold it. If there was no room I'd just wait for the next bus or travel earlier. It's stress that I still remember and just didn't need. DS is 28 this year - and I still remember how much this stressed me out.

YEp, had SPD too.
It's still harder using public transport with 2 wheelchairs.
And constantly pointing out to entitled parents that abuse of disabled facilities makes our lives harder is bloody tough as well.

bishop nobody is saying its not hard with 2 wheelchairs on public transport. I have not been in your situation.

What I am saying is that you may have been able to cope post cs, with SPD etc, but that does not mean that others could do so. You are not entitled to judge other people's situations, just as I would not judge yours.

Bishop, firstly I did not say that the inconvenience of tackling a bus with a baby was comparable to a person with a lifelong disability.

I've said various things such as wheelchairs/those with disability should take priority. I've said that I'd get off the bus if necessary. Also I've never abused disabled facilities, it's something people have chosen to ignore but in my city there are facilities for BOTH, the is a wheelchair zone, a buggy zone and seats for elderly with trolleys. They are signposted as such. You can board the bus with your pushchair without entering the wheelchair zone at all.

I can't see why there is any problem with this unless in the event of two wheelchair users boarding it would make sense to give up the buggy zone. But for the most part there is a space for everyone.

It's not a competition for who's worse off, having a child is generally a choice and a short term lifestyle change, having a disability is not, the two aren't exclusive though.

But having a baby does create obstacle especially when choices are limited be that choice of pram, location to shops, limited money, it could be having an ill child or a health problem yourself that isn't visible. So I don't see why parents lives can't be made easier, it doesn't have to be at detriment to a disabled person.

Sometimes in life there are twunts and they will always be so whether on a bus or anywhere else, most people even mums with prams aren't like this.

I remember when there was no other option - before they made buses designed for wheelchairs.
You planned ahead, folded the buggy at the bus stop before the bus arrived, carried the baby and your bag which you kept light. If your buggy wouldn't stash in the cubby hole under the stairs then you weren't allowed on.

I don't have experience on buses away from my city but it sounds as though there is only a wheelchair space? Here this isn't the case so here you wouldn't be using disabled facilities.

It's easy to say get a smaller pram but if you've already bought it then find yourself needing to use the bus you're a bit stuck.

In my case with ds1 I went from living practically in the town centre and 5 minutes from a supermarket so buying a pram which was most convenient for walking, parent facing good for pushing along the cobbles into town. Then I had to unexpectedly move so was the selfish idiot on the bus with the big pram, but I hadn't intended to be on many buses.

Seensheen you could say that about anything though couldn't you?

So much has changed much of it makes people's lives easier.

You do know why low floor buses were introduced in the first place?

Pyjamaramadrama I agree that most things do seem to change for the better and it was a ridiculous amount of hassle then.

It's the lack of consideration from some buggy users that I object too. If you plan on using buses regularly then take that into account when choosing the buggy and get one that you are able to fold when necessary.

Bishop I'm very aware of why but certain things can be mutually beneficial.

A bus can have be lowered and have access facilities for wheelchairs and prams alongside each other.

Maybe a silly example but most shopping centres have baby change facilities and disabled toilets. Should we ban baby change because it makes people entitled to the point that they take their prams into the disabled toilets?

I may be looking at this a different way because buses here have different facilities so it isn't a case of anyone blocking the wheelchair space.

Where I live more and more buses have two spaces, one either side of the aisle. One is for wheelchairs, the other is for pushchairs. Wheelchairs cannot use the pushchair space as it's not wide enough and doesn't have the safety bar part way along the bay but pushchairs can use the wheelchair bay if it is empty on the proviso that they move if a wheelchair user needs it.

As for accessible toilets, one of the shopping centres here has an accessible toilet and a family toilet. Accessible toilet has a picture of a wheelchair on the door, family toilet has a picture of two stick people and a stick child. Both rooms are the same size/shape but family toilet has a changing table, no bars next to the toilet, no red emergency cord, and a standard height toilet whereas the accessible toilet has no changing table (to discourage it being used as a family toilet), a raised height toilet with bars, and an emergency cord.

Facilities for all, it'll catch on I tell ya

In addition, people need to consider that some people with pushchairs might be disabled too. There was a thread not long ago along those lines where a user was called selfish for not folding but had a hidden disability that made it nigh on impossible to do so.

Bearfrills I'm convinced that some people want to compete in how hard done by they are/were. It's such martyrdom.

I am not talking about disabled people btw but some parents.

Personally if I can make my life easier without it being to the detriment of someone else then I will.

Because mine was a rural route we often had buses with steps still,so I had to fold.
With my first I had one of those ones where I could take her out in the car seat,so I used to put her in her seat on the ground when I folded.
When I had my second I had a double buggy where the baby could lie flat.
It was a bloody nightmare trying to deal with a baby,toddler,shopping and a double buggy.

I quickly abandoned the double buggy for a stroller/sling combo -but it was hard going as I had a 2 mile walk to the bus stop.

C sections really meant I was unable to get about at first,so it was pretty isolating.

Fwiw I actually think disabled facilities are shit and need to come a long way still. Generally things are more aimed at able bodied parents because well there are more of us and we spend more and shout the loudest.

So I am seeing where the hostility is coming from that if even one person blocks a wheelchair user it's one too many. Pushchairs shouldn't be taking over something that's needed by someone else.

Facilities for all is a nice idea though.

It isn't really a problem. I didn't drive when dd1 and dd2 were born and there was one low bus a day through our estate, the rest were old style ones.
So when choosing a buggy I got a Maclaren stroller that goes flat. Techno(?) I think it was called. You put your return ticket/fare in an easily accessible pocket. When you see the bus, you get baby out of buggy, fold buggy up (they fold no problem with one hand). Work of a few seconds once you've done it a couple of times. Hand toddler onto bus as soon as it's stopped, pick up buggy, Get on bus and put buggy out of the way. Really very little slower than anyone else.

Also generally people were happy to help, and I never had anyone complain, roll eyes or tut at me. I did have a longstanding joke with one lady that if I saw her coming I'd take twice as long so she didn't have to run for the bus One of the bus drivers used to take dd2 for a cuddle while I got on leisurely which was rather sweet of them.

Parents with disabilities [hidden or otherwise] and parents of newborn twins and a toddler aside, the majority of able bodied parents, with a bit of forward planning, should be able to cope with folding a buggie and boarding a bus.

What the hell do you think we did before disability campaigners fought for wheelchair accesible spaces on buses?

We folded our buggies as we waited for the bus and just got on with it.

Really not that hard.

Yes parents have benefited from campaigning by disability activists for wheelchair spaces. So has society, because it's actually a good thing if there's an easy transport option other than staying at home or driving for people with babies and toddlers.

It's healthier for parents of babies if they can get out of the house without driving, and it reduces traffic. Wanting that to be reasonably easy for parents does not have to mean wanting it to be harder for wheelchair users. It's worth trying to make it easy for both.

I understand how frustrating and infuriating and just plain wrong it is when people don't make space for a wheelchair on a bus, but looking at every discussion of pushchairs on buses through the lens of that particular problem is misguided. There's more to aim for when discussing public transport and pushchairs and accessibility than just "wheelchairs should have priority", especially given that the OP and as far as I can see everyone else on this thread has already acknowledged that wheelchairs should have priority.

I wonder how disability activists would have got on arguing the case for wheelchair spaces on buses, if every time they said it would be good if they could use public transport easily, earlier generations of wheelchair users had piped up with "well in our day we just wheeled ourselves to town or stayed home or were driven by a relative or paid for dedicated wheelchair transport, you know - we just got on with it!"? They'd have had no chance.

You can't make a case for or against something by looking just at what other people in earlier years had to put up with (in this case either managing to fold a pram, or not travelling). Bus companies do have the power to increase numbers of buses so more people and pushchairs can travel, or do what some do which is to design them to have separate large spaces for wheelchairs and pushchairs. The interests of those two groups are not mutually exclusive!

Then parents need to campaign.

I have a Bugaboo Frog. I bought it second hand for money that wouldn't buy me a Maclaren or even Graco. I bought it to be able to lift it up the stairs to my flat and I don't think it's big at all. Also, I needed those air filled wheels, as they make pushing it much easier. I wouldn't be able to fold it on the bus, but why do I have to do it, when there's no wheelchair user on the bus and the bus have both - wheelchair and buggy area? If there's no space on the bus, I'll wait for the next one. If I'm in the wheelchair area(which happens very rarely) and wheelchair user needs to board the bus, I'll get off the bus. But I will not be folding it down just because someone wants to sit in those foldable seats.
I also won't be buying different buggy, as I simply cannot afford one. And most of those Maclarens, Gracos, Chiccos and other easily foldable buggys are too flimsy for me and their wheels sound like lego box being dragged over the pavement.
And yes, I also pay bus fare, so have as much right to be there as those tutting people.

OP you are so not being unreasonable!!

Even with the 'easy' fold down buggies, where do you put it once it's folded?

Ok so it's lightweight/small enough to carry- but what about the baby in your other arm?
Where does that leave you for holding on for dear life once the bus driver puts their foot down???

I have one of those "big beasts" and have frequently used the bus in urban South East London.
Thankfully not at peak times during the working week, and never to travel huge distances.

If the choice was between attempting to fold down or getting off the bus, I'd choose the latter.
I'd wait for another bus.

I thank my lucky stars I do not have to go near buses on a daily basis!!

OP I agree with you 100%. I have twins and couldn't drive when they were babies. We live a good 4-5 miles from town so had to get the bus and there is no way I could have folded down a double buggy and held 2 newborns ( the fact my double buggy had to be broken down into 5 seperate pieces made it impossible as well ). My dh worked long hours 40 miles away so wasn't available to drop us in town, and one of my babies had lots of hospital appointments to attend so I had no choice but to get a bus. Had a wheelchair got on I would certainly have got off and waited for the next bus but I think it was acceptable to leave my pushchair unfolded as long as there were no wheelchairs needing access. I am so happy that I can now drive and my DCs are way past the pushchair stage - nightmare it was.

I remember, pre-baby, being on the bus in Woolwich SE London.

A woman got on the bus early evening with her 2 toddlers and baby plus lots of shopping bags.
The driver was an utter twunt, forcing her to fold down her buggy before continuing the journey.

The bus was busy but there was no wheelchair to make space for.
The poor women was struggling, with bags everywhere and being jeered by these 2 unpleasant woman at the back of the bus shouting at her to hurry up or "get the fuck off the bus" hmm charming.
Plus there was lots of eye rolling & tutting & huffing from other passengers.
I couldn't believe it!

She gave me her baby to hold, which I gladly did- I felt v sorry for her.
From that point on I vowed never to be reliant on buses for travelling around!

Plus I really should have put in a complaint about the very unhelpful bus driver.