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Original poster

How can you possibly believe in a benevolent God

886 replies

partialderivative · 30/04/2015 23:01

Once more, acts of 'god' have left communities blown apart.

Does any one really feel these vilages deserved it?

God's a bit of a cunt at times.

OP posts:
BigRedBall · 01/05/2015 13:50

God also does a lot of good things. Probably more good things than bad. Us humans seem to only react when something bad happens. We're never thankful for the good things we take for granted.

But that's just my opinion!

Hakluyt · 01/05/2015 13:55

"Makes me sad how people are so ready to rant about God ( which means they must think he exists or why mention him) but cannot praise him for everything that is good in the world."

I only "rant about God" - or enter into a discussion about him, as I like to call it- when people who belive in him give him credit for all the good stuff, but give him a free pass for the bad. I honestly don't see how you can have it both ways. As a atheist, I accept the good and the bad as just stuff that happens. Why me? Well, why not me? Christians were given specific promises and undertakings by God which he has signally failed to deliver on. But they still try to justify him and persuade people to join them in their belief. And, incidentally, to expect special treatment because of their belief. And then get surprised and hurt if other people don't like this very much......

TulipOHare · 01/05/2015 14:01

Um trice I'm not sure crucifixion is a death I would much fancy!

Crucifixion's a doddle Wink well no-one else said it so I had to

I remember as a little atheist in a CofE school sitting cross-legged listening to the nice vicar tell us stories. I thought it was pretty shitty of God to smite the Egyptians with plagues AND KILL THEIR CHILDREN just because their King was stubborn. But Herod was a horrible dude cos of the massacre of the innocents? Confused

Also thought if God is real and omnipotent and all that, why are there entire populations and parts of the world that lived and died without ever hearing of Him. Do they all go to hell? Confused

DoraGora · 01/05/2015 14:03

I'd have said people expect special treatment. I don't think Christians want any more special treatment than non doms, bombers and their virgins, politicians who fiddle their expenses or people who ride the train for free. Everybody wants something. Some of them also go to church.

Elisheva · 01/05/2015 14:11

Why do you all care so much? Why does it make you so angry that some people believe in God?

JassyRadlett · 01/05/2015 14:17

Dora, the problem is that Christianity occupies a position of structural privilege in this country - and when it's suggested that said privilege be reduced or removed, many Christians complain that IT is discrimination or denigration of their religion, rather than simple fairness.

Elisheva, that sort of answets your question too. If it was simply 'believing in God' and didn't impinge on my life or have a negative impact (in my view) on the society in which I live, I wouldn't care what people believe.

Unfortunately that is not the case.

Hakluyt · 01/05/2015 14:19

"Why do you all care so much? Why does it make you so angry that some people believe in God?"

As I say on every single one of thise threads, a) I am not angry because some people belive in God - wanting to debate about something does not mean you are angry- it means you are interested. However b) I am angry when anyone thinks that by virtue of their beliefs (in anything) they have a right to special treatment, or to impose their beliefs on me.

It's like smoking. It's interesting to debate about smokers rights or lack of them and the libertarian argument. And if people choose to smoke in their own homes that is entirely their business. But if they start insisting on their right to waft smoke in my direction, or to have special smokers houses built for them at the tax payers expense, or tell my children that smoking is a good thing and look, have a puff at one of mine, then I get cross.

DoraGora · 01/05/2015 14:30

The CofE is not funded out of general taxation, nor does it require the population to join it. I don't understand objections to the Church on the basis of the fact that it exists (and impinges on people). That sounds a bit imaginary to me. The only exception that I can think of are houses which come under a Church covenant and the owners are responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of the Church (whether they are church goers or not) people do need to be careful about that when buying an old house.

NomNomDePlum · 01/05/2015 14:39

someone posted a picture of the body of a small girl floating in the mediterranean sea yesterday on my facebook feed yesterday. i think - and i say this as an atheist - that we should take responsibility for tragedies that are happening because we are self-serving bastards, and not bother about ridiculous hypotheticals like whether god is also some sort of inscrutably self-serving bastard on another plane.

this obviously sounds incredibly po-faced, but seriously, we can't stop earthquakes but people should not be drowning because we are unwilling to take the risk that they'll wind up - what? living in our town? working some shit job we don't want?

Hakluyt · 01/05/2015 14:44

DoraGora, it sounds as if you are unfamiliar with the make up of the House of Lords and also of the state education system............

DoraGora · 01/05/2015 14:51

OK, you'd replace bishops in the HoL, or the house itself? Faith schools are various, and even CofE schools vary their policies. That said, however, you'd propose to do away with faith schools, or just CofE ones? At our school, the religious elements are optional, as stated in the curriculum.

Hakluyt · 01/05/2015 14:57

In an ideal world, the HoL completely. But certainly the Bishops- no other group has a guarantee of a 25 member block vote. And yes, I'd do away with all faith schools. (or, my own particular whacky policy, I would make it so that if you wanted to apply to a faith school you were restricted to faith schools alone- you would be barred from applying to non faith schools) And when you say that the religious element is optional, what you are saying is that it is compulsory for the school- pqrents have the right to opt out. So the "norm" is christian worship- in order not to take part you have to opt out.

dejarderoncar · 01/05/2015 15:00

Dora I would estimate that abuot 95 per cent of all opposition to same sex marriage and womens' choices re contraception and abortion come from organised religión in the western world.

Fine, if they would just mind their own business, not have an abortion, not use contraception, or marry someone of the same sex. But they move heaven and earth to stop anybody else making those choices as well.

Binkybix · 01/05/2015 17:00

Makes me sad how people are so ready to rant about God ( which means they must think he exists or why mention him) but cannot praise him for everything that is good in the world

People 'ranting' about God does not mean they believe he exists. Generally people are objecting to what they believe is the construct of God and the influence they think this construct wields. It's not that difficult to grasp surely.

JassyRadlett · 01/05/2015 17:24

Christianity has a privileged position in this country.

It (and to a much smaller extent other religions) are sanctioned by the state in discriminating against children of other or no faiths in deciding who gets to attend their local state-funded school.

It is presented as the default or norm when it comes to acts of worship in all state schools.

It gets guaranteed seats in the legislature.

It is presented as the default option in swearing an oath.

It demands and is granted exemptions to laws preventing discrimination.

It expects (and often receives) special consideration when it comes to policies and laws in areas like social policy and health that affect people who aren't of their faith.

I'm happy to leave Christians to their own devices if they leave me to mine. And that means withdrawing from the structures of the state.

JassyRadlett · 01/05/2015 17:28

(And actually, I think many religions have a negative impact on individuals and society. That said, if you're practising your faith in a way that doesn't hurt or disadvantage others, I'm happy to leave you to it. Unfortunately, the structures of the church are not content to do so.)

DoraGora · 01/05/2015 17:33

Were churches trying to prevent same sex marriage, (Marriage Act 2013) or merely be exempt from conducting ceremonies if they objected to doing so. I thought that it was a secular lord, Lord Dear (a former chief constable) who tried, and mightily failed, to introduce a wrecking motion to it, in the HoL.

Sistermillyrose · 01/05/2015 17:39

People 'ranting' about God does not mean they believe he exists. Generally people are objecting to what they believe is the construct of God and the influence they think this construct wields. It's not that difficult to grasp surely.. The OP clearly stated that God was a ..**. That implies she thinks he exists. Is that hard to grasp.

Blistory · 01/05/2015 17:39

I'd agree with Jessie that the Church should have no place in government, education or the workplace. I'd extend that to all religions and would remove religion as a protected characteristic.

JassyRadlett · 01/05/2015 17:50

Dora, the short answer is yes, extensively, although the CofE became more conciliatory when they were given special exemptions.

You may wish to check out Welby'a comments and voting record, even ignoring the huge and horrible campaign that went before.

DoraGora · 01/05/2015 17:50

Well, it's certainly an interesting proposal, to convert the Church into just another pressure group, rather as the Labour Party has done by abolishing Clause Four and compulsory subscriptions.

I'd argue that the Church is by far the best moral force that Britain has and without its guidance we'd be a far worse country than we're trying hard to be at the moment. At least the Church disagrees with drowning people in the Med because you don't like their origins. Secularism isn't that great, from where I'm standing.

Blistory · 01/05/2015 17:58

At least the Church disagrees with drowning people in the Med because you don't like their origins

And atheists don't ?

It is generally accepted that Christians don't occupy the moral high ground all by themselves. In fact, in some instances they're not in sight of the hill never mind on top of it.

JassyRadlett · 01/05/2015 18:06

I'd argue that the Church is by far the best moral force that Britain has and without its guidance we'd be a far worse country than we're trying hard to be at the moment.

What a hugely offensive statement - and one that has no evidence to back it up, while plenty of evidence to undermine it.

Hakluyt · 01/05/2015 18:08

"I'd argue that the Church is by far the best moral force that Britain has and without its guidance we'd be a far worse country than we're trying hard to be at the moment. "

How would you argue that?

JassyRadlett · 01/05/2015 18:11

I'm also terribly interested in whether you have any evidence to link secularism and the drownings in the Med?