Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

How can you possibly believe in a benevolent God

886 replies

partialderivative · 30/04/2015 23:01

Once more, acts of 'god' have left communities blown apart.

Does any one really feel these vilages deserved it?

God's a bit of a cunt at times.

OP posts:
Sistermillyrose · 04/05/2015 09:15

Thegreylady
Excellent post, I also believe in Gods infinite wisdom in the creation of the Universe. While I have total respect for those who don't believe I am also rather baffled at their outright denial of Gods existence. To me, evidence of Gods existence is everywhere.....
To presume we know Gods way and to expect him to act in a way that is comprehensible to us is impossible, so if we rage against a god that seems to be devoid of compassion by letting awful disasters happen it can be so easy to then conclude that there couldn't be a God.
I believe that God is love, without Him we wouldn't know what love is.

JassyRadlett · 04/05/2015 09:20

Sister, I'm glad it brings you strength and happiness.

I don't expect you to understand my lack of belief (not denial). I don't see Christianity as the default or automatic option (along with billions of people around the world) so lack of belief in that god does not constituye denial or rejection.

headinhands · 04/05/2015 09:23

outright denial of gods existence

I can only speak for me when I say I don't know that there isn't a god, but I'm convinced it isn't the God of the bible because of the lack of evidence to back up claims made therein. There is no evidence of a loving God because of the unspeakable things that happen on earth. There may be a hands off uninterested God but it wouldn't care wether I believe or not.

If you witnessed a child being raped you would do everything you could to stop it, not doing so would make you a monster, you would never expect people to trust your decision to let them be raped when you could stop it and that your behaviour was outside of their understanding.

Icimoi · 04/05/2015 09:35

I really don't understand the suggestion that we would not know what love is without God. Plainly millions of people who have no belief in God do know what love is. It cannot sensibly be suggested, for instance, that without God we would not love our children.

Hakluyt · 04/05/2015 09:42

Interesting that it's OK to say atheists can't know love........

Lazarus- please could you respond to my question about the mocking of Christians on this thread and you being given "dog's abuse"?

hackmum · 04/05/2015 09:45

Sistermillyrose: "I believe that God is love, without Him we wouldn't know what love is."

That's nice for you. But imagine, for a moment, you were born 2,000 years ago in Rome. You'd have believed in Jupiter and Juno and a whole load of other gods, and you'd have been perfectly happy to do so.

On the scale of human history, belief in a monotheistic God is a relatively recent thing. You might imagine that it's obvious that there's a God who is benign, omnipresent etc but in truth it's a view that is entirely culturally determined.

fulltothebrim · 04/05/2015 10:07

I believe that God is love, without Him we wouldn't know what love is.

Supreme arrogance.

JassyRadlett · 04/05/2015 10:09

We all know it's ok to say atheists have lower morals, don't love their kids as much, and it doesn't matter because they and their kids are going to hell anyway.

You're just not allowed to question the basis of Christianity or whether it has been an undeniable good gor our culture. That's not acceptable.

Hakluyt · 04/05/2015 10:33

Any sign of Lazarus?

Sistermillyrose · 04/05/2015 11:06

Fullto the brim
Arrogance? I'd say it was more arrogant when atheists say "there is no God" rather than "I don't believe in God"

fulltothebrim · 04/05/2015 11:23

Until I have proof of existance thaen I assume non- existance. That is a rational stance. Not an arrogant one,

I believe that God is love, without Him we wouldn't know what love is.

That is an arrogant stance because you feel the authority to speak on behalf of others. You may not be capable of love without your imaginary friend, but to assume others feel the same is pompous.

DollopTheTrollop · 04/05/2015 11:41

Don't know if this has already been asked but....

Let's assume I find god tomorrow and become a fully fledged, happy clappy, born again Christian.

Presumably I get to go to heaven.

But my children don't believe. So when they die, they don't go to heaven.

So rather than heaven being all lovely, actually for me it's absolute torture. I'm not living eternally in peace and joy. I'm enduring millennia upon millennia in agony, not knowing where my kids are or what they're suffering.

How can anyone be happy in heaven unless everyone they've ever loved is there too?

JassyRadlett · 04/05/2015 11:55

Sister, I don't believe in any gods. Yours is not particularly special and does not hold special significance in that absence of belief in deities.

Again, trying to describe atheism as 'not believing in [the Christian] God' is coming from quite an arrogant and privileged standpoint where you see your faith as the default.

Blueskybrightstar · 04/05/2015 12:00

I presume that if you're ready to believe in a G OD you're willing to also believe in a Devil, in which case God did the good stuff and the Devil does the bad stuff.

Or simple cause and effect which explains masses of stuff: I.e. we go on polluting the world, causing global warming, perpetuating systems of voting in/supporting corrupt leaders, not sharing resources effectively in crises, being racist, being lazy, bullying eachother, etc. the human race as a whole woefully misuses vast amounts of resources that could be used pretty quickly to right a hell of a lot of wrongs.

Hakluyt · 04/05/2015 12:13

"I believe that God is love, without Him we wouldn't know what love is."

So definitely atheists, and presumably non Christian theists, do not know what love is?

tomatodizzymum · 04/05/2015 12:14

Only way to find out is to die. Even that's not guaranteed! Ironically some people have done that and people still don't believe them and try to provide psuedo explanations to discredit their experiences.

Still for many who were religious and had a near death experience, they became less religious (but remained spiritual) and for those who believed in nothing and had one, they started to believe in something (but not necesserily become religious). That suggests that there is probably something, but religions are just a way of trying to understand the unknown, rather than the correct explanation for it.

irretating · 04/05/2015 12:33

Dollop, the standard happy clappy, born again Christian reply to this is that when you go to heaven you'll be so besotted worshipping God that you'll simply forget about your loved ones.

If you do find god tomorrow, try and be a progressive Anglican.

Hakluyt · 04/05/2015 12:49

I'd quite like to be Richard Coles.

headinhands · 04/05/2015 13:57

Ironically some people have done that and people still don't believe them and try to provide psuedo explanations to discredit their experiences

There have been studies and tests devised to test the veracity of these claims which involved placing pictures on shelves in resuscitation suites that only people above the self would be able to see. Not one of the individuals that claimed to have an out of body NDE saw the picture.

If you are happy to believe such a huge claim on anecdote you are forced into the intellectual position of believing anyone's personal testimony in order to maintain integrity in your belief system 'I will believe something on personal testimony even when there is no scientific data to corroborate it'.

What we know from observation is that we are our brain. You only have to look at people who have suffered brain damage to see what a lack of oxygen does to it. There is no evidence to suggest it survives not matter how much we want it to be so.

Frankly your use of the word pseudo when criticizing the scientific community's body of findings on the ability for the brain to survive death is hilarious.

Chiggers · 04/05/2015 13:59

As an atheist, I think it's incredibly arrogant to imply that us godless heathens cannot love without god. I've figured that I don't need god in my life to know how to love. I've figured that out all by myself with the help of my DH, DC and dogs.

The difference between a dog and a god, is that a dog doesn't have conditional love, whereas the Christian 'god' demands that you believe in him to have him love you. Even then, there's no guarantee that anyone will get into' heaven'.

headinhands · 04/05/2015 14:01

To me, evidence of Gods existence is everywhere.....

That is a meaningless statement. I might as well say the evidence of the rainbow coloured magical unicorn is everywhere. It means nothing unless you quantify what and how and what god and so on.

Is a child being murdered by their parent evidence of god? Or a baby starving to death? Do you have to be choosy about what is evidence?

Chiggers · 04/05/2015 14:31

Not only that Head, but if 'god' actually does exist, then why is he letting children be abused and starve, while he's preoccupied with what gay folk are doing behind closed doors???

tomatodizzymum · 04/05/2015 15:31

There is no evidence that we are our brain. Also no one is suggesting or has ever suggested that the brain survives. In fact the opposite, it dies, there is no activity. That's what makes the experiences so interesting. It is conciousness that may or may not survive. That's whats's being investigated. Conciousness is not the brain, it might be, but until that's proven it cannot be claimed as fact.

Not one of the individuals that claimed to have an out of body NDE saw the picture. Proving that none of the inviduals saw the picture. Nothing else.

If near death experiences were nonsense then they would not attract the interests of neurologists and cardiologists. Opinion is divided. If the experiences exist and an explanation has only been speculated rather than proven, then the experience cannot be denied, nor will it be.

Sistermillyrose · 04/05/2015 15:33

There are some strange posts on here as is usual while we are on this subject. It isn't at all arrogant to say what I believe. God has given us the capacity to love. We could easily have been born without it, what a sterile and cold world that would be. God gave us the gift of love, that is why we are able to love our families.
God isn't letting children be abused and starved, why on earth do you think that is Gods doing. Sounds more like the devils work to me.

Hakluyt · 04/05/2015 15:46

"It isn't at all arrogant to say what I believe."

Of course it's not. However it is arrogant to say that those of us who are not theists don't know what love is.