How can you possibly believe in a benevolent God

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Once more, acts of 'god' have left communities blown apart.

Does any one really feel these vilages deserved it?

God's a bit of a cunt at times.

Dollop If heaven was a tortuous place (because) of loved ones who aren't with us it wouldn't be Heaven. If we were in a place where we would be weeping and wailing because of estrangement from our loved ones it wouldn't be Heaven, that actually sounds more like hell to me. I also don't believe that because you don't believe you wouldn't go to heaven. I think it's more about being a good person. We cannot expect to have the same needs in Heaven as our needs on earth.

Hakluyt you've got me wrong, I didnt say that. Of course atheists know what love is, why wouldn't they. I said without God we wouldn't have the capacity to love. He created us and gave us that capacity......all of us, not just those who believe. Those are my beliefs.

Well, if he exists, he's certainly not doing anything to stop it, is he
What makes you think that is his way. We are on earth for a reason, bad things will happen. If he stopped every bad thing from happening what would be the point of us being here. It is the next life where we will be happy.

Dollop If heaven was a tortuous place (because) of loved ones who aren't with us it wouldn't be Heaven. If we were in a place where we would be weeping and wailing because of estrangement from our loved ones it wouldn't be Heaven, that actually sounds more like hell to me. I also don't believe that because you don't believe you wouldn't go to heaven. I think it's more about being a good person.

Unfortunately the New Testament explicitly disagrees with you. Which is part of my issue with Christianity, or at least as many people seem to practise it. The bits of the source book that are convenient are repeated as unalloyed truth, their presence in the inspired texts of the Bible being evidence of their veracity. But the bits that aren't convrnient or particularly comfortable are explained away.

Someone described it as modern progressive Christianity 'redefining God out of existence', which resonates with me.

I don't know why but the subject of God always seems to bring out the nasty side of people, with lots of sarcastic and even nasty posts. I refuse to feel belittled and patronized for my beliefs. The OPs post was an offensive one, I didn't see many protests, so obviously most on here don't have a problem with the use of the c**t word to describe God. Asolutely no respect for those of us who do believe. I'm actually appalled that nothing is said to that OP about her offensive post but, heaven forbid someone dares to take a stand against it and actually dares to reveal their belief in God.

Can I just helpfully point something out, Sistermillyrose? Self-pity is never a good look.

People disagree with you. They do so in robust terms. Get used to it. All over the world people are being tortured and killed for their religious beliefs (or lack of them) - if the worst that happens to you is that people are a bit rude, then you haven't got a lot to complain about. And remember - God doesn't like a whiner.

Sistermillierose- nobody, but nobody- has raised any objection to you believing whatever you want to belive. And if you care to look, you will see that I certainly said the use of the word cunt was a mistake.

What I, and many others object to is a) the imposition of faith on other people in any way and b) the hijacking of all that is good, beautiful and moral by Christians-as if only Chrisitians have a right to, or are capable appreciating or practising

I also object to the misrepresentation of atheism, and the refusal of some people to accept that they are misrepresenting it.

As a side issue, I do find myself irritated by Christians constant claims of mockery, or nastiness when they have merely been disagreed with. If you make categorical statements, you must expect disagreement.

No self pity here, course people disagree with you, they do so in robust terms. That's exactly what ive done in my posts. It works two ways you know. As for God not loving a whiner, I don't suppose he's ecstatic over being called a c**t either.

As a side issue, I do find myself irritated by Christians constant claims of mockery, or nastiness It irritates me too, so why do they do it. No point denying it, they do it all the time. Atheists make categorical statements all the time. They too must expect to be disagreed with.

But we do expect to be disagreed with. We don't whine about it, though. That's the difference.

The chemical reactions going on as it slowly becomes starved of oxygen are obviously going to have unusual effects - not obviously

But only someone who desperately wants to believe in an afterlife is going to ascribe it to that! and only someone who desperatly doesn't will ignore the views and research they don't like.

I don't accept or deny any views. In fact personally I think it has to do with quantum theory. But that's THINK not KNOW. I certainly have read research from both sides. You are very mistaken if you think that ALL doctors who have researched near death experience only do so because they want to find a brain based explanation. Many believe there is a brain based explanation but many do not. Both sides are interesting and scientific.

Believe what you want. What I object to is the privileged position the Church of England occupies. We should have a separation of state and religion.

Sister, as I've said, I respwct individuals' right to belueve what they like (as long as it does not affect those who do not share that belief) but why am I required to feign respect for a belief system I abandoned along ago? Why am I required to refrain from pointing out that statements made about the nature of Christianity may be at odds with the basic texts of Christianity? Particularly when Christianity continues to occupy a privileged status in our society.

You feel free to denigrate and dismiss lack of faith. That's fine. But don't be surprised if others don't treat your beliefs in a similar way.

Of course I did not take issue when someone called the Christian God a name. I explained why much earlier in this thread. In a nutshell, I don't think the Christian god is real, but as a literary and cultural construct that has huge impact on our society, it is valid for individuals to have an opinion on the nature of that deity as described in the Bible and elsewhere.

What is sacred to you is sacred to you. While respecting your right to hold your beliefs, I am not required to treat them as sacrosanct. To me, they are not.

Hackmum we don't whine either. What you do do is castigate anyone who is a believer, either that or try and belittle them. I don't understand why you think it is whining to put own views across. If it is we must all be guilty of it. It's called a discussion.

sistermillyrose this isn't a religious forum. It's a mixed forum that allows swearing, therefore some people will use those words, including the c word. It's all within the terms and conditions of the site. I don't like the c-word either, so I don't use it, but I don't have the right to object to others using it, on this site. It's not really on to come onto a site which is meant for everyone and attempt to censor other people's language.
You must be aware that many atheists dislike the concept or character of the old testament god, and some will use stronger language than others, within mumsnet rules. If it's not as if people are running around churches shouting it out loud, is it?

But one you're only willing to discuss if your faith is treated with the same reverence you afford it? That's not an equal discussion - to me, that's a further expectation of Christian privilege.

Why would you expect any atheist to object to a negative description of an entity we consider to be fictional?

Flm, thanks for putting it so much better than my attempt! For the record, I also dislike the concept and character of the God of the New Testament a lot of the time.

Sister - I found this quite an interesting thread because some people were willing to engage with the OP on a substantive basis and explain their position from a theological / faith standpoint. That's the sort of thing that can further mutual understanding.

Complaining that someone was rude about your deity is not engaging in the same way.

I won't treat any religious belief with respect. I won't be rude to individuals about their beliefs. But I treat those beliefs the same way I treat those who believe in ghosts or fortune tellers.

Those same standards should apply to all then. I see lots of posts on here and there's a rush of complainers often about quite trivial things. It appears that some one will get offended over the most trivial of stuff. If someone came on here and called the queen a c**t I'm sure there would be a rush of complaints, but really by your argument there shouldn't because as you pointed out we don't have the right to object to it.
Mumsnet rules do allow swearing but I don't think it's fine to refer to a specific person, or in this case God.

"As a side issue, I do find myself irritated by Christians constant claims of mockery, or nastiness It irritates me too, so why do they do it. No point denying it, they do it all the time. Atheists make categorical statements all the time. They too must expect to be disagreed with."

Interesting that you only adress that part of my post.

What do you mean, atheists make categorical statements all the time? Ones like "there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of a god or gods"? Anyone can disagree with that if they want. They can't do it in any way supported by logic or reason- but they are welcome to disagree!

Sistermillyrose, no-one is saying you can't hold those beliefs, in fact, I'd fight tooth and nail to allow you to hold them openly, but I take umbrage at any Christian trying to a) force their beliefs onto others and b) cry persecution when people, who don't hold those same beliefs, disagree with you.

As the late Christopher Hitchens once said "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence". Not only that, but in this age of reason, if you make a positive statement such as "God does exist", then the burden of proof is on you to prove it.

Atheism is a belief like the karma sutra is brand of hair dye.

Except God isn't a particular person. God is a concept which some people believe in, and others don't.

I mean hak when some of them say things like "there isn't a God" or words to that effect. That is a categorical statement and it is used a lot on MN. I was told I shouldn't make categorical statements, so the same should surely apply to everyone.