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AIBU?

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Original poster

How can you possibly believe in a benevolent God

886 replies

partialderivative · 30/04/2015 23:01

Once more, acts of 'god' have left communities blown apart.

Does any one really feel these vilages deserved it?

God's a bit of a cunt at times.

OP posts:
Binkybix · 01/05/2015 22:48

I'm sure our ideas of what God are do differ. But that's not really relevant to the point I was making which put simply is that people can disagree with the impact that the concept of god has without believing that concept is true.

capsium · 01/05/2015 22:52

You can disagree all you like Binky but you cannot police people's beliefs.

JassyRadlett · 01/05/2015 22:59

Most theologians and people of faith I know share that same idea of the Christian god, based on scripture, if that helps.

My idea of the nature of God hadn't changed much since I believed.

When on earth did Binky try to police anyone's beliefs?

JassyRadlett · 01/05/2015 23:03

I'm also terribly interested in your strong suspicions on why I think as I do?

Without you trying to police my beliefs, of course.

capsium · 01/05/2015 23:05

Jassy the policing of beliefs, as an idea, is extrapolated from the assertion that people have a right to complain regarding the impact of beliefs.

Most theologians and people of faith I know share that same idea of the Christian god, based on scripture, if that helps.

My idea of the nature of God hadn't changed much

Except in the most important respect, that is, He is (true).

capsium · 01/05/2015 23:08

Jassy my strong suspicions, that you think as you do, are that you don't believe.

JassyRadlett · 01/05/2015 23:33

Well, you should have more than strong suspicions about that.

There is a gulf between the policing of beliefs - someone telling you what you can or cannot believe - and the discussion of the impact of Christian beliefs on people who don't share them. There is no logical extrapolation. If Christianity's structural privilege were removed, would it change your ability to believe? Would you feel pressured to change your beliefs if Christianity were not entwined with the state? If so, why?

capsium · 01/05/2015 23:42

Christianity's 'structural privilege', as you put it, is there as a result of people's beliefs. You cannot entirely divorce beliefs from the resulting actions.

Of course I could still believe if the 'structural privilege' was removed. But how do you do that without altering people's beliefs? If you are saying they are already altered enough, why worry? The 'structural privilege' will change in due time, if this is the case.

JassyRadlett · 01/05/2015 23:53

It's a result of the past influence of the church - a history that included at various times killing peoe perceived not to be Christian (policing their beliefs taken to a rather extreme end).

Given that 30% of people in Britain say they believe in any deity, it does not reflect the current situation - and is nothing more or less than privileged treatment built on historical accidents.

What removal of privilege would affect your belief in your god? Would your belief be affected if there were no bishops in the House of Lords? If state schools weren't allowed to discriminate based on religion? If churches, rather than hospitals, funded faith-specific chaplains? If there wasn't Christian worship as standard in state schools?

What removal of enmeshment with the state would affect your belief, or the belief of other Christians? And if their belief is dependent on societal reinforcement and tacit approbation, is it true belief?

capsium · 01/05/2015 23:58

So you don't need to worry then Jassy, if you think it is past beliefs that keep the church's influence on the state. If what you are saying is correct this influence will be short lived.

I just said I can still believe regardless. However this means I am not the person to convince. I'm no use to you since I have made the decision to keep my Christian beliefs. I am part of the church, why would I fight against the church?

capsium · 02/05/2015 00:01

^although I might want change within the church, a move towards more church unity, but this is not what we are talking about here.

JassyRadlett · 02/05/2015 00:07

So you don't need to worry then Jassy, if you think it is past beliefs that keep the church's influence on the state. If what you are saying is correct this influence will be short lived.

I've seen no evidence of this - the church works very hard to maintain its privilege, as do individual Christians (cf the barrage of complaints the BBC got when they changed from BC/AD dates).

But in any case, it affects me and my life now. So yes, I do have to worry about it.

I'm not saying I expect you to change it - though many Christians' resistance to fairness makes me question their commitment to other professed values - but explaining (again) why the Christian god and Christian religion occupy any space at all in my brain. The Christian god and the structures built around said deity impinge on the lives of millions who don't share that belief - it is forced upon our notice by being forces into our lives, and therefore it is reasonable to have an opinion on it.

headinhands · 02/05/2015 06:36

don't rant about how he allows disasters

I don't think anyone is ranting. The reason we ask the question is because we're interested in how you, the believer makes it square up, that's the crux of the issue. I'd like to understand because I managed it for two decades and I'd like to know the mechanism more fully.

headinhands · 02/05/2015 06:38

in works of fiction there is no question of the characters being real

So you believe all the things said in the other religious texts? How do you decide that religious text A is real while religious text B is not?

capsium · 02/05/2015 07:50

Jassy

But in any case, it affects me and my life now. So yes, I do have to worry about it

So what purpose does this worry serve? Do you expect people to alter their beliefs to minimise their effect upon you? Would you alter your heartfelt beliefs (on any issue) to minimise their effect upon someone else? How far you censor yourself in terms of sharing your own beliefs? It is just a fact of life that we all hold beliefs and they affect our actions. This is true of any belief, be it secular or religious.

Binkybix · 02/05/2015 08:00

You can disagree all you like Binky but you cannot police people's beliefs

I've not tried to police anyone's beliefs. In fact I think it was the other poster who tried to do that by insisting that because someone said God is a cunt they must believe in him, when quite plainly they don't.

There's a difference between holding a belief and thinking it should allow you specific rights. I can hold any belief I want as could others but I don't think it would give me the right to have a block vote in the House of Lords for example.

Tequilashotsfor1 · 02/05/2015 08:06

Yes agree with binky

religion has always been like the 'empires new clothes' for me.

Binkybix · 02/05/2015 08:07

Again, just read all the posts and Jassy has put it better than me once more. I think I'll leave it to her/him in future!

capsium · 02/05/2015 08:18

There's a difference between holding a belief and thinking it should allow you specific rights. I can hold any belief I want as could others but I don't think it would give me the right to have a block vote in the House of Lords for example.

The fact is, certain people currently have legal rights within the House of Lords, whether you or I think this is fair or not.

Unti then people only have a 'right' to express their opinion on this, in a way that does not break any laws.

capsium · 02/05/2015 08:19

^unless this changes not 'unti then'. Typo.

Hakluyt · 02/05/2015 08:23

I do find it extraordinary when Christians effectively say "Yep, we do have a privileged postion in society- and I like it that way. So tough- deal with it"

capsium · 02/05/2015 08:27

Hak what would you like Christians to do? Change what they believe? Fight your battles for you?

rallytog1 · 02/05/2015 08:33

Not all Christians say that though Hakluyt. A large proportion of us are very uneasy about things like bishops in the HoL and faith schools discriminating on the basis of church attendance.

Binkybix · 02/05/2015 08:37

*The fact is, certain people currently have legal rights within the House of Lords, whether you or I think this is fair or not.

Unti then people only have a 'right' to express their opinion on this, in a way that does not break any laws*

Yes I know. And exercising the right to express that opinion is not proof of trying to police belief in god (unless that belief is 'I believe in god, belong to a specific religion, and think this affords me privilige in law making above others') so I don't see how this supports your argument that I (and others) are trying to police your beliefs.

Many laws have changed due to society changing and often this has come around by social pressure or specific campaigns.

It's also all irrelevant to my original point (which you seemed to disagree with) which was that the OP calling god a cunt does not mean they believe he is real.

But maybe you just wanted to discuss in general rather than thinking that poster was correct. I might be misunderstanding you.

Binkybix · 02/05/2015 08:39

Not all Christians say that though Hakluyt. A large proportion of us are very uneasy about things like bishops in the HoL and faith schools discriminating on the basis of church attendance

I know, and it is hugely appreciated by me that you separate your faith from the right for that faith to confer advantage. Smile