Working mums get all the shit and end up with no career

[farewellfigure]

Hi. I really don't know if I've just a bee in my bonnet or whether workplaces in general really are unfair and women get such a raw deal. It's all very emotional at the moment as our department has just announced that 2 out of 10 of us will be made redundant in the next month. I'm applying for an admin/assistant role in my DS's school and I really hope I get it. I'm actually really excited but I can't help pondering over the fact I will become the cliché of a career woman who has to give it all up.

Anyway, at work, there are 3 designers who are part time, and 2 part time writers. We are all mums who had careers... we were managers, department heads etc. Then we had babies and came back part time and weren't allowed to be managers any more. And how about the men we used to manage whose wives had babies? They are now managers, department heads etc. It drives me NUTS. In DS's school, there are so many mums who had careers, and are now dinner ladies, TAs, admin assistants etc, it's just not funny. Not that there is anything wrong with any of those jobs whatsoever. But it just seems so unfair to me. I know having children is a choice, and I chose to do it. And I chose to go back part time. Yes... all my choices because I actually wanted to see my DS a bit every day and have a relationship with him. But basically I waved good bye to my career and now it looks like I'll have to wave good bye to the job as well.

There are 2 young women in the office who will probably get to keep their jobs when the redundancies come because they are young and full time and 'fresh'. WIBU to say to them, 'When your time comes, and you choose to have babies, come back full time. Put your DCs in nursery all day every day and keep your management roles. Otherwise you can kiss good bye to your high-flying careers and do what all the other overlooked mums end up doing'. Bitter? Me? Just a wee bit. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and maybe a bit of perspective! And I'm giving myself a . Is that allowed?

Well into the never most people can make decisions themselves . Even 'full timers' have days off when they aren't available to babysit the incompetent....

I have had a variety of different arrangements - went back full time after baby number 1, 4 days after baby number 2 (disaster - 5 days work for 4 days pay) and now I do annualized hours to have most of the holidays off. My empoyer is very flexible, I work from home as much as I can and I am on promotion track BUT, I am very flexible too - I travel when I need to and when I need to do a 16 hour day, I do it (doesn't happen that often) and will do important calls at random hours to make it work.

It depends where you work, it depends on how long you have worked there - I wouldn't get the same flexibility if I was applying for my role externally. I know I am valued and they know I value my job. It is a 2 way arrangement. Its much harder with the DCs at school, the reading and random last minute bring a present for an uncle requests = nightmare.

There is no such thing as having it all - no one can. I think it's about having enough to make your peace with it. I am comfortable with my choices as is DH.

I think it's more about flexible work than part time work. Obviously it depends on the job, but most of my managers have spent most of their time in meetings, often off site, sometimes contactable, sometimes not. From my point of view it wouldn't make much difference whether they were in Milan, Scunthorpe, Tooting or popping out to do the school run and then working from home.

Agree with what tobysmum and merrymouse said about flexibility/handholding.

Frankly, if you run a team, and every time you happen to be out of the office for a day your team wander around like little lost sheep bleating "Ohhhhh, woe is us, what shall we DOOOO, BossLady isn't here to teeelllll us what to doooo", then you are a fucking shit manager and you should be either training them, setting some bloody (consistent) direction, or managing them out and getting in people who can work without having their hands held all day.

When I am out of the office for a day, my teams just bloody get on with it. My own manager has been in the office for about two days in the last couple of months. Surprisingly enough, although it would have been nice to have a few face to face chats, it has still been perfectly possible for me to do my job because at my level I am not expected to need direction every five minutes, and neither is anyone who works for me.

I am really confused by some of the comments about part-time work. Firstly, that the company can't afford to pay for someone to do the other days of the week. If that is the case, then you could not pay the p-t worker to stay full-time anyway!
I don't know anyone who proposes a part-time manager, if it's a full-time role you pay two people to do it. (Can't imagine needing constant contact with a manager to be honest!). The disparaging comment about finger-painting shows the contempt mothers are so often held in.

My husband lost his job in January and so, just this week, I got myself a full-time job and left 13 month-old DD in his care. He is doing an absolutely fucking sterling job of it; I feel usurped and hate being away from my baby. I'm packing the job in after the bank holiday. How anyone can want to leave their babies and go back to their career full time is beyond me

But flotillas it's also beyond me how anyone can want to stay at home full time. So cut out the and get on with your own life in the way you want to.

When I was in a management role I had staff working in multiple sites and most of the time I was out of the office in meetings - if they could not make decisions without hand holding from me I would have been viewed as a failure by my superiors and they would have been of little use to me full or part-time. I would not trust a nanny who could not make independent decisions to finger paint with my children. I achieved everything I wanted to in my career before I had my children and I firmly believe paid work is not the only way to contribute to society or to live a fulfilling life. I also have a bit of a philosophical problem with employing people to live my lifestyle for me!
In general I respect that others feel differently but I think people who have never considered not having paid employment can be very naive about alternative approaches. This can indeed lead to some very insulting and patronising comments!

I think the answer is flexibility for both genders, not neccesarily always working part-time. I quit my job because my employer (not coincidentally a 60 something year-old man) could not get his head around me doing my job with a degree of flexibility (coming into the office 4 days, working from home for the other hours but not nec within the hours 8.30 - 5.30, but being contactable on mobile and able to come into the office for meetings if neccesary as I lived a 10 minute drive away). I had done the job autonomously for years - I knew what was involved to get the work done, there weren't other team members who'd be negatively effected or who would have had to pick up the slack if I wasn't in the office. So I quit (to their shock! "but we want you to stay!" ) and they lost an experienced, knowledgable resource with a ton of institutional knowledge. Their loss.

I was very lucky to find my new job - (also not coincidentally run by a 40 something female), clear flexible working policy already in place - not just for women or for mums, but for everyone.

Both are large multinational companies - it just shows how differently some companies prioritise things. Flexible work policies benefit both genders.

I don't know flotillas, have you asked your DH how he can do it?

wind your neck in flotillas some of us have careers we enjoy & are good at... Personally I think having a mother with an interesting & fulfilling job is a good example to set for my poor wee mite

I think that there are patronising comments regardless of whether you work FT, nearly FT, PT or SAH.

A woman's place is in the wrong after all

I work p/t. It fits round school and I have a choice of wfh if the DC are sick etc. I always wfh school hols. I am a single parent with full PR and the docs father lives abroad and doesn't do parenting. ,

In reality, I work all hours I can, I'm always online and replying to emails, participating in meetings via webinar after hours to fit in with the USA time zones well up til midnight. I'm up at 6 to reply before getting DC up and off to school. I run/ housework/ personal stuff between when I leave for the day and school pick up. I duck out and organise round teatime/ bath time / bedtime. Then back on it.

The DC like listening to me on conference calls and sliding past me waving ice creams and I can't do anything about it:) I'm a sit com:)

Actually, I like it. I like that technology has made it possible for someone like me to wfh and also continue to study for my career. There is always a way, I've found but it's so reliant on past performance and qualifications/ experience pre DC. I didn't work for 8 years and was a sahm.

However, it's very interesting to me at least, as single parent I do this. it's not the conventional life that's for sure. But i toolk what the opportunity offered and I'm very flexible. And I don't have any living parents or childcare. I like being busy and appreciated, and I'm rewarded.

There are jobs we haven't dreamed of yet waiting for our DC. And work ethic and hours that aren't conventional to what we know and seek stability in. Embrace it:)

I have always believed you can 'have it all', but not necessarily all at once . I worked pt and at home between my children-for 4 years (was 35 and well established in career before I had DD1) Had decided and was looking forward to prospect of being SAHM . It lasted 21 months as DH was made redundant and I became main, and sometimes only breadwinner, for 8 years I was so glad I'd kept my hand in .I job shared (it was regarded as just as 'good' as a ft post- I thiught job shares were now very common , even in senior roles ?) for 3 years then ft for another 15 and retired at a much more senior level than I had ever expected . I never felt discriminated against because I had children . It was hard, even though DH was at home.
My advice to my DDs has been to establish a career, do not relinquish it . It would have driven me demented to do a lower level job outside (or indeed inside) my profession (Though I would have done anything to keep food on the table and the mortgage paid) Fortunately I didnt have to . My Dds expect to go back to work if they have childrn and dont se it as an issue
Friend told me yesterday that her DD has just gone back after PFB - she is working 4 days, as is her partner .Childcare (London) is costing them £780 . I assumed a month . Not a week surely? But it's worth is to maintain her career (she is 37,a high flying researcher) And they need the money

Post, I imagine its £780 weekly, for London and early drop off, late pick up.

Both parents pick up the bill. For a single mother it's harder- almost impossible, for the cost and being comparable with hiring a nanny or an au pair. Or relying on GPs, assuming they don't work, live nearby or actually want to help/ you want them to be involved.

many jobs can be done from home now, but the norm is going to the office and working 9-5. Social media is 24/7, you can buy 24/7 but still the hours of " work" are fixed.

Wow! I am out of touch lavenderhoney I knew she was well paid but still... Yes this particular couple obviously see it as a joint responsibilty (I suspect she earns more than he does) Knowing her mother, I'm not surprised .But as you say, it works only if you are very high earners . It would be nearly twice what my own daughter earns .

4 miserable years after returning to work 4 days a week after Dc2 have told DH I am not sure if can continue indefinitely in this job, feel it and the strain of commuting and the stereotypical juggling is contributing to my poor mental health. Unfortunately he doesn't support me looking for an easier! lower paid, more local job because it would mean significant changes for the whole family. I feel I am letting them all down by not being able to cope.

780 sounds like monthly rates for nursery or CM for 3 days a week.

It must be monthly, surely, they only need three days childcare after all - if it's weekly that's £260 a day!
My bill for three days is around £650 a month.

Still a massive chunk of your salary though, we pay more childcare than mortgage.

The bottom line is that the thread title is utterly wrong.
It shoudl be

"Part time/short hours working parents get all the shit and end up with no career . Full time working parents reap rich rewards and have lovely balanced lives".

Duckdemon it sounds like your pt job plus family commitments are more than a ft job! No wonder you are exhausted.

Lotuslight your posts sound increasingly evangelical. Is it possible other people might have a different experience to you?

Thanks Nolim.

Lotus light, to work FT (indeed more than FT which is what many employers want and reward), especially for people without extended family support and who won't/can't live near work (eg commuters in the South East like us) the amount of paid childcare that would be required is huge. In our case DC would be in childcare from 7.45am to 6.45pm 5 days a week. Many people aren't happy with that for themselves or DC.

Full time working parents reap rich rewards and have lovely balanced lives".

Did i just read the magic formula for a lovely balanced life? If only i worked ft!!! Oh wait, i do! Why is my life not lovely?