Working mums get all the shit and end up with no career

[farewellfigure]

Hi. I really don't know if I've just a bee in my bonnet or whether workplaces in general really are unfair and women get such a raw deal. It's all very emotional at the moment as our department has just announced that 2 out of 10 of us will be made redundant in the next month. I'm applying for an admin/assistant role in my DS's school and I really hope I get it. I'm actually really excited but I can't help pondering over the fact I will become the cliché of a career woman who has to give it all up.

Anyway, at work, there are 3 designers who are part time, and 2 part time writers. We are all mums who had careers... we were managers, department heads etc. Then we had babies and came back part time and weren't allowed to be managers any more. And how about the men we used to manage whose wives had babies? They are now managers, department heads etc. It drives me NUTS. In DS's school, there are so many mums who had careers, and are now dinner ladies, TAs, admin assistants etc, it's just not funny. Not that there is anything wrong with any of those jobs whatsoever. But it just seems so unfair to me. I know having children is a choice, and I chose to do it. And I chose to go back part time. Yes... all my choices because I actually wanted to see my DS a bit every day and have a relationship with him. But basically I waved good bye to my career and now it looks like I'll have to wave good bye to the job as well.

There are 2 young women in the office who will probably get to keep their jobs when the redundancies come because they are young and full time and 'fresh'. WIBU to say to them, 'When your time comes, and you choose to have babies, come back full time. Put your DCs in nursery all day every day and keep your management roles. Otherwise you can kiss good bye to your high-flying careers and do what all the other overlooked mums end up doing'. Bitter? Me? Just a wee bit. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and maybe a bit of perspective! And I'm giving myself a . Is that allowed?

"DH is less tolerant of boredom than me. He would really struggle to be doing the same thing for years on end (while stuck in a job with shorter hours)".

That's very convenient for him pico!

If you have nanny lotus you are in a different world to me, with a live in nanny I am sure you too could stay till midnight at work, do the extra hours, and get the accolades and bonuses given to men In my workplace.
I think the op was referring to this when advising young women to get maximum childcare and stay at work if they want to have rsresponsibilty later. I work very hard many extra hours from home and have the right attitude, but it is not enough. I was expected to travel to the other end of the country to be seen at head office. This would be easy if there was a nanny or relative available to take the children, or if they were easy children without medical issues.
Luckily The whole career thing is not that important to me, as I accepted many years ago that in a STEM subject you have to be prepared to move around the country to get promotion, which does not reallly fit in with married life let alone children. In our house hubby has the ' career' and I have a realtively well paid 'job'. It could have been the other way round.
The great thing I find about children is that the more effort you put in, the more reward you get back, and this is definitely not the case at work, where you can work like stink and get no thanks. (Men often also work like stink and get no thanks.)
What irritates me is casual assumption that because you go home at 5pm or even 4pm, you are not hard working and not putting in the effort. I am capable of delivering the work just as well as the person who stays till 10pm but probably spends much of the day chatting. I even work till 12 after kids in bed. It is usually the men who stay late as it is usually the women who have responsibility for the children, but can be either, its not an argument about sexism its more about treating those who have children properly, giving them management positions if they are capable of doing them.

Haven't read the whole thread, but in my case it all worked out well. I was in a well paying job when I had the DC - most of the team were men, and women who were there did not come back after mat leave. MY manager was very keen for to come back, and suggested that I work at home when I needed to and left the office at 4.30 to be able to pick up the baby from nursery at 5.30. they installed an d paid for a phone line for me to use at home ( early internet days). When the second DC went to school I put forward a case for me to work term time only - it was accepted on a trial basis and then became permanent. Technology had moved on, and so with blackberry/phone etc I could still so some work in the school hols, but around the DC and not have to rush them out to hol clubs etc- we spent a lot of time on the beach etc just mooching about whereas I would have felt more incline to have 'organised ' hols if I only had the normal entitlement. I still had the same targets as others, so it was hard work, but fantastic to be able to go to all the assemblies, sports days etc. When the second DC was a secondary I was head-hunted for a very senior job which involved a lot of travel etc, but by then they were quite independent and DH picked a lot of the childcare.
So... I definitely didn't miss out, best of both worlds, and was earning 140k but was geting bored with the corporate world, so decided to retrain to be a teacher. Now earn a tiny fraction of previous salary, but still have a good work/life balance working as a supply teacher.

We never had a live in nanny. We just had someone who arrived at about 8am and left at 6. It's cheaper than paying for 3 full time nursery places (we had three under 3) and it was 50% of each of our net salaries in the first year. In cities it can be a cheaper option than lots of full time nursery places if you have quite a few children and she didn't stay late. One of us always got back to let her go not least because I wanted to be home to breastfeed and we both wanted to do the bath and story routine and see the children every night like most normal parents.

". In our house hubby has the ' career' and I have a realtively well paid 'job'. It could have been the other way round."

But it so very rarely is the other way round.

Women need to plan it. I am like Lotus in that in my early 20s dh knew my career would take priority. I would not have married a man who wanted a sahm, even for a short period of time. I don't do wifework, although when we married I obviously didn't know it was called that! I doubt our girls will either when they grow up.

A part time manager cannot manage a full time team, you made the decision to go part time not your company. If a man asked to do the same he would probably get fired.

Fathers have had just as much entitlement as mothers to request flexible working for some years, sherbert. My DH isn't FT and manages a FT team.

It's impossible to generalise to say a full time team needs a full time manager. If the manager is planning tasks for the team, say, she can plan tasks over a week and be in some days and not others.

Managing a team is not the definition of a high powered career. The definition of a high powered career is NOT managing a team, just providing 'governance' over the poor buggers who have to do the managing. The highest powered people in this country actually DO bugger all. They attend functions and board meetings govern.

Being on a Board is the most part time position there is.

Anyway, the key to it all is having good help. Outsource the wifework to somebody else, as LotusLight has done, and reap the rewards of not having to worry about whether the washing has been hung out that morning.

It was only when I had a decent nanny at home did I realise how liberating men find it to have a 'wife'. I can understand why men haven't wanted the system to change, because they are definitely the ones who benefit from someone else washing their socks.

Oh yes Kiwi even in my small way moving from SAHM to working for myself and getting in cleaners - the bliss of returning from a client meeting to a hotel standard cleaned house (by a team of men) cannot be over estimated!

Also bailed on a big job (six figures). Great money but wow I earned it I used to work day night and weekend international travel at drop of a hat (sure Lotus can guess what I was doing!). Binned it and 6 lovely years as SAHM. Now working for myself which funnily enough being SAHM gave me confidence to do as I met lots of interesting women doing different things - not just tedious conveyor belt lawyers - which gave me confidence and idea to go on my own. In November I out earned DH and he is high earner! LOVE working for myself, 6 year old sick twice this morning not a problem can work from home. Most of my other SAHM mum friends gone back full time so don't buy the myth that time out means the end of things. We shall see.

At least we all seem to agree that "wifework" is in fact far harder with poorer working conditions than proper jobs! When I earnt my 6 figure salary I admit to glamorous travel, swanky hotel rooms, stimulating conversation, never breaking a sweat, being able to order out for lunch and sit with my feet up on the desk - sitting at home with my feet up now though

I feel that sometimes we forget that not all paid work is stimulating and rewarding and that the life of a SAHM is not in fact all SAH drudgery. Also I think sometimes compromise does lead to the worst of all Worlds.

I also think for certain careers it may depend where you live. I have no doubt if I had stayed in Central London I could have maintained my career but the additional pre tax earnings I would have needed to achieve the lifestyle I have now would have run to 6 figures (housing, childcare / education for starters).

Hats off to you Keralai - you seem to have it sorted!

Interesting that you or your H were home by 6pm Lotus. I don't think commuting helps careers! But living and housing in London, where lots of the jobs are, can be difficult.

Yes, when you're full of breastmilk you tend to want to get home on time. however our basic pattern was I waited for our nanny to arrive before leaving for work as my husband had to be at school in particular as head of music for assembly never mind anything else. At the end of the day he got home first - his school day ended around 5.45pm (boarding school in those days so long day) so he tended to let our nanny go home first but I did try to leave work on time as much as I could particularly when breastfeeding.

No parent male or female who works full time finds this easy however. Even now with big teenagers I have work things on the day of their first GCSE so they will have to take a train and bus. On the other hand it's good for children to have to be adaptable and I think they gain more from that than if a parent is always at their beck and call.

I work in engineering and being part-time has wrecked any chance of promotion or progression for me. What I hate most is that my job was never adjusted to be part -time, I do the same role with the same responsibilities as I had before, however I get to do it in only 29 hours, for 29 hours pay, and have to suffer the constant "oh I wish I didn't work Fridays/could go home at 4.00" regardless of the fact they are doing the exact same amount of work as me!!!
Why is that acceptable?? As if it's not galling enough to have to do the same workload in less hours, this apparently only applies to the position I have now, I am unable to apply for promotion positions as "they aren't part-time".

On the subject of 'wifework' does anyone know how to outsource things like washing? Or cleaning that doesn't require you to tidy up first?

kubbs a good nanny / housekeeper will do those tasks, anything required to keep the family running while parents are working.
The trouble for a lot of women is justifying the cost. However I would argue that as long as you earn more per hour than the nanny (and usually in a 'career' job you will) and if it improves your career prospects markedly to stay in the workforce for longer hours than would otherwise be the case if you were wife-working, then it's worth it. Best combo in my opinion is a four day week with full days, with the out of home hours covered by a nanny. Worst combo in my opinion is short days with wife picking up all the slack on the Home front.

Agree that commuting is the killer. Impossible to maintain good family life with just one of you commuting, let alone two. Possible to have a very good career outside London.

Kubbs you need to enlist the DH and the DC. I am the managing director of our household because DH can only work PT hours for me given he WOH - his promotion prospects in my organisation are extremely limited given that he is never on the premises when the DC need supervision. Cannot think of anything worse than having a paid employee sort through my dirty laundry and prowl round my belongings with the hoover.

DH already does loads, I want us both to do less, not just me. So that we can spend time together and have a relationship as well as a to do list (soppy fool I know).

DC is only 10 weeks.

Kiwiinkits - totally agree, that's my plan. Although I have a wonderful MIL offering two days childcare so I don't need childcare, just extra help around the house.

howabout - DC is only 10 weeks and the plan is for us both to work FT once my maternity leave is over. We both enjoy our jobs and don't want to miss opportunities to progress.

Impossible to maintain good family life with just one of you commuting, let alone two.

Please allow me to disagree. Dp works 7:30-4, i work 9-6:30. We have discussed with our managers to work those hours plus commute in order to do pick up/drop off. So far so good. It is not posdible to have our careers outdide london. And yes we fo have a cleane that is totally worth it.

In that case outsourcing is the way to go, but you should know I really only spend a couple of hours a week on cleaning and laundry and I am a SAHM with a messy toddler and 2 teenagers who create a lot of laundry.
I have considered sending out DH work shirts and if we both worked I definitely would. There would also be a regular trip to the dry cleaner for work suits. Before we had DC we went to the launderette so laundry was very self contained rather than a household chore. We also ate out or had light evening meals having eaten during the day so cooking was not an evening chore. This also cut down on food shopping and menu planning. If I were working I would be looking to replicate this with DC being fed by childcare before I got home making use of freezer planning. I use on line shopping for all non perishables and I highly recommend it.
I know you think me flippant but I do think especially when you are pinned to the sofa with a baby and drowning in dirty nappies it is easy to lose perspective on "wife work".

My MIL lives too far away to offer childcare but she did offer to pay for a cleaner for me - it is just me who prefers a certain amount of slobbery to having my privacy invaded.
I think it is really important to protect time as a couple and that is what I meant when I said DH was not expected to pull his weight in my domestic set up as I would rather we were fighting over what to watch on the telly etc rather than whose turn it is to do the washing up.

I was very annoyed today- I was called by my HOD whilst at work as he was chasing something up. He started the conversation by apologising and saying he knew I was probably just leaving work. It was just coming up to 4.

FFS, I do not and have not ever left at 4. I leave at 4.30 two days in the week and 5.30 the other two days I work and I always take work home with me.

What really annoys me is this inference by others too that they stay until 6 or 7. Yes, I know you do, and I also know you spend it surfing on the net and chatting to others just taking your time as you have nothing to rush off home for.

I spend lunch and break working and eating at my desk. It is really annoying that there is this assumption that I rush off. Last week, in our team of 9 teachers in or department, myself and one other teacher had marked a load of test papers on time. Everyone else did it much later missing the deadline- not least the HOD who did his an entire week later!

Like no lim, we have two careers and two commutes