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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

i would fricken BAN smoking at tables outside eating establishments

367 replies

ElizabethHoover · 25/04/2015 12:14

Its just GOPPING.
Its like a nicotine based apartheid ( slight overstatement) where the TINY percentage of smokers (a sixth of the population) in the country force the rest of us inside to get away from their stench and litter.

GRR

OP posts:
Bakeoffcake · 25/04/2015 22:03

punk I'm not telling you how to do your jobConfused

I was responding to your post "Give us some evidence or facts about second hand smoke causing cancer otherwise you continue to sound like a twat."

You asked for evidence, I posted some. Sorry if that annoyed youHmm

daffsandtulips · 25/04/2015 22:04

Your son has an extreme allergy Sirzy. My son does also, he has an epi-pen. I dont tell people to stop eating nuts near him. I know he has this so "I" move.

chaletdays · 25/04/2015 22:04

I do notice the considerate ones and always appreciate it. But sadly, they're in the minority.

daffsandtulips · 25/04/2015 22:05

Evidence of Roy Castle is in the extreme Bakeoff. What about some other sort of multiple evidence?

Sirzy · 25/04/2015 22:05

But if smokers are considerate (as most are) then nobody need move.

Bakeoffcake · 25/04/2015 22:05

I will Daff. Am off to bed now.

I suggest all you tetchy smokers go and have a fag and calm downGrin

YouTheCat · 25/04/2015 22:06

Chalet, I have been smoking for 27 years. I always try to be considerate. If I consider that it's not appropriate to light up (kids nearby etc) then I wait. And in all those 27 years, that is the only time anyone has ever made a comment.

Bakeoffcake · 25/04/2015 22:07

See my post at 21.17 for evidence Daffs.

daffsandtulips · 25/04/2015 22:07

Oh you mean considerate as in not smoking in an outside area then Sirzy? ummm.

daffsandtulips · 25/04/2015 22:09

I have said that was extreme Bakeoff (if it was the Roy Castle one) so not sure why you want me to read it again. Or did you mean another post?

Sirzy · 25/04/2015 22:09

No I mean considerate as in not lighting up next to other people unless you are in a designated smoking area or you ask the people first "do you mind if I smoke?"

Read youthecats post for an example of a considerate smoker!

chaletdays · 25/04/2015 22:10

But just because you think you're being considerate doesn't necessarily mean you are. I don't believe most smokers deliberately set out to piss off or discomfit non smokers. But so many of them do it without even realising.

Also, just because no one comments doesn't mean that they're not thinking 'thank God she put out that cigarette when I arrived with the buggy' or somesuch. Why should people praise and gush over you for exercising normal consideration?

daffsandtulips · 25/04/2015 22:14

Why on earth do people need to ask you if they can smoke in an outdoor area? Im not going to bang on about how "considerate" I am. If in an outside restaurant or bar area then Im sure you expect that people will smoke. It isn't rocket science. It isnt illegal. Im not sure either why you need an exclamation mark at the end of your post?

daffsandtulips · 25/04/2015 22:17

Look, I dont smoke in designated childrens play areas in parks. Why on earth do you see it as your right to make people stop smoking as soon as you bring along little tarquin? Why on earth do you think that your enjoyment of an evenings relaxation should be tantamount?

YouTheCat · 25/04/2015 22:18

I'm not expecting a medal. Grin

People do lots of inconsiderate things in general life. I don't let most of it bother me apart from those tits who stand having conversations right at the bottom of escalators .

Sirzy · 25/04/2015 22:18

Because it's manners. Seems you don't like the idea of thinking of others though which is fine, but it is the lack of manners of some smokers which gives smokers a bad name.

daffsandtulips · 25/04/2015 22:21

Whose idea of manners? Saying please and thank you are manners.

chaletdays · 25/04/2015 22:22

I really hate that attitude that 'there's no law against it so it's not inconsiderate'. I often wonder if the people who come out with that are also the ones who give out about the 'nanny state' when the Govt have to step in and legislate because people can't use common sense and consideration.

daffsandtulips · 25/04/2015 22:23

Thinking of who? If Im relaxing and in an outdoor area having a cigarette after my meal and not blowing smoke in your face Im well within my right to do so, it has nothing whatsover to do with "manners".

BoneyBackJefferson · 25/04/2015 22:24

LaurieFairyCake
"You agreed with the 'monopolising outdoor space' by responding to me and saying they should go home and smoke"

No I didn't agree with monopolising space at all, I said that it was wrong to say that smokers couldn't smoke inside as they could smoke inside their homes. At no point did I say that they "should go home and smoke", that is what you are incorrectly reading in to what I wrote.

PunkrockerGirl · 25/04/2015 22:25

There's little or no evidence about outside smoking affecting anyone, Bakeoff . The outside ban hasnt been in situ long enough to gain evidence. That'll take many years.
There's no tetchty smokers on here, only huge assumptions by the anti smoking brigade about their rightsConfused

chaletdays · 25/04/2015 22:28

It's not about rights, Punk, it's about consideration. If someone took out their perfume or deodorant and started spraying it around at the next table when I was trying to eat I would find it annoying and inconsiderate. There's no law against it, it's not infringing on my 'right's' but it's rude and inconsiderate.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 25/04/2015 22:28

Four days.

It's been only four days since the last 'how very dare they smoke a fag when the sun is out and I decide to enjoy sitting at a wobbly table breathing lorry fumes with my coffee?' thread.

Sorry this is long.

Dear non-smokers who have caught a whiff of an outside fag and are Feeling Outraged,

What you need to realise is that the indoor smoking ban wasn't about you in the first place. Here's what the House of Lords had to say after the smoke-free legislation came in:

Passive Smoking

76. The recently introduced bill to ban smoking in public places illustrates a number of worrying features connected with the formulation and promotion of legislation[49]. The stated objective of the bill was to ban smoking at work and in enclosed public places, because passive smoking imposes a significant health risk on workers and others exposed to environmental tobacco smoke (ETS).

77. In order to evaluate the operation of risk policy in this area, we considered a range of evidence, much of which cast doubt on the stated rationale of the legislation. In her evidence to us, Caroline Flint, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Public Health, commented that:

"it is clearly the case that, in relation to deaths from smoking and second-hand smoke, the most serious aspect of that is smoking in the home. Ninety-five percent of deaths are related to smoking in the home"[50].

Other evidence we received suggested that the health risks associated with passive smoking are relatively minor and the main harm, if there is one, concerns children who are exposed to passive smoking in the home, which is something the bill is not designed to address[51]. Sir Richard Peto did suggest that ex-smokers might be more at risk from ETS than those who had never smoked at all, but the general tenor of his evidence indicated that the risks are uncertain and unlikely to be large[52].

78. Given the evidence about the impact of passive smoking, we are concerned that the decision to ban smoking in public places may represent a disproportionate response to a relatively minor health concern. It may be that the unstated objective of policy is to encourage a reduction in active smoking by indirect means. This may well be a desirable policy objective, but if it is the objective, it should have been clearly stated.

If evidence for the risk of harm from indoor second-hand smoke is weak and tenuous, how much evidence of harm do you think there is for outdoor second-hand smoke? That's right, there's fuck all!

So, you can't justify a ban* on smoking in outdoor settings on the grounds of your health.

You could argue that a ban would encourage more smokers to quit. That's a noble aim - after all, smoking kills half of all regular smokers, ~100,000 deaths per year in the UK. Banning smokers from smoking in yet more places for their own good would certainly improve their physical health if it prompted them to quit. There are two problems with this -

  1. It doesn't help. It has helped, up to a point. The 'denormalisation' strategy - basically encouraging the general public to treat smokers like shit on their shoe - has nudged lots of people to quit smoking. There was a sharp drop in smoking rates after 2007 but then things kind of plateaued at around 20% until last year. The recent momentous drop to below 20% is more to do with ecigs than denormalisation.

The smokers who are left are on average more heavily addicted, much poorer and massively more likely to have a MH diagnosis. No amount of taxing them, shunning them, making them look at pictures of diseases every time they pick their packet up, or just casually telling them they are selfish, stupid and smelly at every opportunity, is going to work. The average smoker already feels shit. Making people feel more shit about themselves is not generally recognised as a good way to get them to care about their health. There are interesting discussions within public health on the ethics and efficacy of stigma and shame.

  1. It's dishonest. If you are going to ban people from doing things for their own good and for no other reason, you should consult them first, otherwise where do we stop? Sugar does no good to anybody and lots of harm in excess so let's just ban it. Alcohol may have some small health benefits in very small doses but most people who drink have at least a bit more than is good for them, maybe we should introduce bans on buying more than one unit?

So you're left with wanting to ban something because it's a bit annoying to you. I have quite a list of those things Smile

If you want a smoke-free environment to eat your dinner outside then tell the business. They care about customer feedback because they want customers so they might decide it's in their interests. Some of their customers might be smokers though who have their own opinions about relaxing with a coffee and a fag in the sunshine.

*I'm assuming everybody is happy that they live in a country where everything is allowed until it is banned rather than the other way around, otherwise there would be nothing new ever and we'd all still be in caves (if they'd been permitted).

chaletdays · 25/04/2015 22:34

But the reason most of us hate people smoking around us is because we can't stand the smell, the way the smoke catches at out throats and because we don't want to eat food that has had second hand smoke blown over it.

In the same way that if I decided to spray a bottle of noxious perfume around when you were trying to eat you would object for the above reasons.

daffsandtulips · 25/04/2015 22:39

Oh get over it Chalet, and whos the (most of us) really, just speak for yourself. You don't like certain things neither do I. But hey it's not a perfect world, thank god! We aren't PC, Robots just yet Grin