i would fricken BAN smoking at tables outside eating establishments

[ElizabethHoover]

Its just GOPPING.
Its like a nicotine based apartheid ( slight overstatement) where the TINY percentage of smokers (a sixth of the population) in the country force the rest of us inside to get away from their stench and litter.

GRR

lullabyneedy - Plenty I'm disputing that VAT raised is higher than what it costs the NHS.

I'm really confused here. As far as I can tell, you were responding to this (I don't know who originally wrote this, I've lost track!):

The revenue that smoking brings pays for every bit of treatment a smoker can ever have. The smoker does not bleed the nhs. Smoking costs the nhs, say 20 billion, smokers pay in tax three times the amount. This is a FACT. Where the government choses to spend that is up to them.

Her figures are plucked from thin air but the principle is sound. Tax revenue from tobacco sales more than covers the cost to the NHS of treating smoking-related disease. In fact, it's six times as much, not three times.

You responded by saying the stats from 2012-2013 showed a 12.3 billion VAT revenue.

This is incorrect. That's the total for VAT plus tobacco duties. It appears to be only you who is arguing about VAT on its own, which by the way is around 2.8 billion, so still higher than the NHS cost.

Icimoi - Plenty, in quoting the ASH statistics, why have you omitted the calculation that the total cost to society of smokers is £12.9 billion a year?

Because I was responding to a specific point There was an argument going on (as there often is) about the cost of smoking to the NHS vs. the tax raised on tobacco products. I dug up the figures and posted them with the aim of bringing a little clarity to the discussion. That worked well

I quit three years ago and have no problem sitting outside smoking.

It's the open air, if I don't like it I would go elsewhere.

I vape and was allowed until recently to vape in most restaurants and pubs but most of them have now banned it because stupid people complain because they think it is going to give them cancer. Fair enough, their rules, but I would not be happy for vapers or smokers to be banished from outside restaurants.

I'm sure I saw figures recently saying that smokers don't cost the NHS any more than "average"

Yes, they are more likely to get nasty illnesses young, but then they don't need loads of geriatric care....

Sounds about right, Gotta. There are some very creative uses of statistics in most of these 'cost to NHS' and 'cost to society' calculations. The only figures that we can reasonably trust are the amounts of tax raised.

I'm more surprised people don't tell their neighbours they are having bbqs.
We all do round here, its common courtesy.

Do people complain because they think it's going to give them cancer or simply because it's unpleasant to be around U2?

'I'm more surprised people don't tell their neighbours they are having bbqs.
We all do round here, its common courtesy.'

Never in my life heard of that. You come home from work, decide to spark up the grill to make dinner, and you'd actually ask your neighbour what you can do on your own property? WTAF?

'Oh, I'm going to use my BBQ in my garden/have a fag/etc'

I would find that beyond odd. A bunch of people had one out in a communal area the other day. My washing smelled of BBQ smoke and paprika. So what.

Has no-one realised that the indoor smoking ban has caused an increase in the concentration of smoke in the outdoor space?

Not that I like the smell of smoke at all, but it seems outdoors is likely to be more smoke-filled than it used to be because that is where the smokers have been forced.

I don't understand why people whinge about eating inside though. Isn't that what you do most of the year? Why do you feel 'forced inside' by smokers and not 'forced inside' by the cold?

And finally, we use the barbeque several times a week all year around. It would be bonkers to inform our neighbours every time. However, we do tend to check there is no washing out in their gardens if any smoke is likely to go in their direction.

I'm not a smoker but don't think smokers should be banned outside. Where else would they go? If I want to eat without smoke I eat indoors. (I generally do this anyway because I HATE insects).

lullaby I wasn't doing it in a stroppy PA way, I am not really a person that does that, I don't really. Like to have to get confrontational with people either and given that is was open air I could garden have insisted that she should put her cigarette out could I? I would have done if she'd done it in a no smoking area though. I know she could see that I was struggling with it because I kept having to shuffle and lean to move out of the wY of the smoke but I was trying to be be fairly low key about it. And every time I moved I could see in my peripheral vision that she would look sideways at me.

What I would have liked and what would have been decency, Good manners and common sense on her part would be for her having seen that I was clearly struggling with it) to move the fuck away or put the cigarette out and just learn to live without it for an hour. It's not much to ask that people put their 'right' to annoy someone second to their conscience and sense of common decency, is it?

I love being able to go to a pub, club or restaurant without having to breathe in someone else's cigarette smoke.

I'm pretty tolerant so was quite happy for the smokers to use a smoking shelter/ stand/ sit outside for their fix.

Now I'm noticing that outdoor eating areas in restaurants seem to be the norm for smokers to sit and light up.

We love to eat outside . In cool weather you'll see us bundled up eating outside on a sunny day. Recently we did just that. We sat at a table in an outdoor area and within minutes of ordering food more and more people came and sat and lit up. SomE weren't eating or drinking just came outside to sit and smoke and yes you could smell it and it was unpleasant but at least it was outside.

Pubs and restaurants are struggling enough as it is, so no I wouldn't ban it either. I don't think there's a solution. We non smokers will just have to put up and let them get on with it if we want to sit outside.

I expect neighbours to tell me they are having a bbq, of course

You'd be fucked round here then - in all my 45 years I have never had anyone tell me they were going to have a BBQ (unless they were inviting me) and have never told anyone I was going to.

That can't be a real thing - must just be MN bullshit.

I'd look at you like you were a fucking lunatic if you did....

Everywhere I have lived the neighbours have told us about bbqs and we have told them.
It isn't a big deal you just mention it during a chat over the fence. "Oh, by the way we are having a bbq on saturday etc.
Maybe we have just been lucky with neighbours, perhaps if you are out at work you don't find time to communicate with your neighbours. We have always been friendly with ours and they have been likewise with us.
Could be an old fashioned way, perhaps.
I have had a chat with mine today when pegging out washing, he showed me some more photo's of his sons wedding.
I was having a cig outside at the time too.

We're always chatting with our neighbours, and most of the street - it's a sociable place to live!!

Never mentioned BBQ's though - it's a whole social aspect we appear to have missed out on.

I'm intrigues now -

So what if neighbour at 33 says "we're having a BBQ on Saturday" but it's your turn to wash little Timmy's rugby teams clobber? Do you ask the neighbour to reschedule, but you can't do it on Sunday as Daphne from No 37 is having her BBQ then.

Do you ask one of them to cancel? Do you fill your house with wet rugby gear?

Or do you do what the rest of us do & just put your washing out no matter what your neighbours are doing?

It's disgusting I agree.

If someone said "we're having a BBQ Saturday" I'd think they were inviting me.

Iknow

No of course not, but I may make sure the washing was done earlier so done before the bbq.
it really isn't a biggie and if someone forgets to mention it there's no big deal, some people just happen to think its polite to mention it.
nobody asks permission.

I noticed this morning that all the outside tables in my local Pret have no smoking signs on them - this is definately a very recent development

I don't want myself or my family to have to breathe in stinky smoke, why should we? It maybe a smokers argument that it's 'their choice', well what about my choice?

Keep your fumes to yourself selfish smokers. EWww, yuk.

YANBU.

Especially in good weather it is soo annoying that almost all the lovely terraced areas are filled with smokers. Means those with pushchairs/kids have to clutter up the inside areas /can't take advantage of outside in good weather

Have any of you been to a country pub on a sunny afternoon? A lot of them are deserted/closed been turned into houses.

Turn up en masse with children and buggies and fill the garden. A pub makes money from wine/mixers/soft drinks/coffees and not generally from lager or beer.

Our local has a beautiful walled garden with a small playground overlooking a church and a great landlord/lady.

It is deserted on most week days and weekend afternoons. Not a smoker in sight. They figure they can last another year at the most.

morethan - good to know! Just wanted to make sure there wasn't a whole "underground" scene I was missing out on!!

Keep your fumes to yourself selfish smokers.

A good rule of thumb may be to notice if tables have ashtrays on them - if they do then they're going to be used & you may be better off moving elsewhere rather than inflicting your catsbum face on people who are trying to smoke & eat.....

I'm not a smoker but don't think smokers should be banned outside. Where else would they go?

Somewhere where other people aren't eating in the vicinity? Just like they do when they're eating indoors? Or, here's a thought, they could just stop smoking for the relatively short time it takes to have a meal.