To think that if 16 year olds need a letter of consent to travel overseas without parents, then this should be publicised?

[MrsSchadenfreude]

DD1, who is a few months short of 17, recently went on a walking holiday in Turkey with a friend and her family. I checked the gov.uk website before she left, and also that of the airline, and neither mentioned the need for a letter of consent from parents to travel (the airline said it was needed for under 16s).

DD1 was held up by the airline, who called Immigration, who gave her the nth degree questioning, finally letting her board, when she showed them an email from me, giving details of her travel insurance. On return to UK, she got held up for even longer, being questioned about where she had been, what she had done, with the IO telling her that she should have a letter from her parents giving permission to travel, and that she "would exceptionally land her on this occasion, but next time to remember that she needed a letter." DD1 was quite upset by the whole experience.

Is this a new thing, and if so, where is it publicised, that you need a letter? What if I had let DD1 get married - would she have needed a parental letter to go on her honeymoon with her new husband? I understand that they are feeling a bit sore after the recent "jihadi brides" going to Syria, but DD1 in no way fits this profile, was wearing all her walking gear to travel, and was going nowhere near the border with Syria.

Supermum,

Ive lived the life of 'permission letters' and what happened to the OP's daughter was very different.

here in the US

This is the UK.

I have never had a problem with my kids needing written permission from both parents so maybe that is a US thing. When younger their dad or I often took them away separately and there was never any need for documentation.

Heavy handedness by authorities is exactly the kind of thing that helps in the radicalisation of people.

This is an article by a Muslim woman and her treatment at Heathrow. She was travelling alone.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/i-never-fully-believed-that-british-muslims-were-being-victimised-but-then-i-was-stopped-at-heathrow-10153102.html

Also, OP I found the best approach when dealing with immigration has been to answer their questions directly. I've had my run ins with UKBA and found them to rude at times. I was accused by one of tax evasion! Ironically I've always found US and Canadian immigration to be firm but very polite.

If your daughter felt uncomfortable she should have said so. My dad drilled this into us and told us that if we ever felt threatened we should ask BA (who we always flew with as they are ace with this sort of thing) for help or ask the immigration to call him or his assistant who would locate him.

I Have read the thread but can't remember if you said you your DD was leaving Manchester airport. I've found Manchester to be one of the worst airports in terms of border security.

soup dragon the rules are exactly the same in the UK as they are here in the US. The US enforce them. Denmark also enforces them.

wee I don't see it being very different at all. If one parent or both parents are not present there needs to be a letter from both parents giving permission. I travelled all over the world without my parents from the age of about 5. The rules used to be very different but the world has changed and the rules have also changed to reflect the world we are in today.

Icimoi, I worked for a local police force for over 20 years. You would be amazed at the things people will let slip if being interviewed by someone who knows what they are doing but that aside what do you suggest? If stopping and questioning people coming from Turkey/Syria/Iraq wouldn't definitely reveal anything should we just prop the door open and let anyone walk through?

Apart from her stupid comments about her daughter not looking like a Jihadi, I can't see why the OP has had such a hard time on this thread. If this is a requirement of travel then of course it should have been on the websites that the OP checked before her daughter travelled, or included in the information the airline sent. That's not unreasonable at all.

Spooky - not P&O (you would have to pay me to travel with them, and even then I probably wouldn't!)
Eurostar - whose website just says that it is fine for teenagers to travel alone - with their own passport.

When I was 17 I did a private exchange with a family in Germany. She visited me and then I visited her. Her father drove over and dropped her off, and then we both flew to Germany together (with no adults, though she was days off her 18th birthday), and I flew back on my own.

Would that not be possible any more? All I needed was my passport (one of the cheap one year British Visitor types).

I see that you need "written authority". What's that? Anyone can fake a letter including any savvy 17 year old who wants to run away to Ibiza for the summer.

Here in the us the letter needs to be notarized and part of the process involves the notary checking ID. So for us we go to the notary at the library with our drivers licenses and birth certificate. Notsure what the equivalent is in the UK but I am sure someone will come along and say.

You can't just write the letter and sign it. They are clued up on that one!

The equivalent in the UK is a Commissioner of Oaths which can be a notary, barrister, solicitor or licensed conveyancer. OP sending you a PM.

soup dragon the rules are exactly the same in the UK as they are here in the US.

And yet no one can provide a link to the definitive rule that says an under 18 yr old must have a letter to and that you need to faff about getting it "notarised"

And yet no one can provide a link to the definitive rule that says an under 18 yr old must have a letter

My children have travelled unaccompanied internationally while under 18, with no trace of this requirement. They've also travelled with school in large groups and small groups, with orchestras ditto, with guides, with their grandparents and the requirement hasn't arisen, travelling to and from EU and non-EU countries.

It does seem remarkable that the people who claim this requirement exists can't cite it, and it doesn't appear to be known to perfectly sensible and experienced trip organisers, nor has it arisen in 18 years of travelling with children.

I don't see how such a requirement could arise. The UK didn't have, until a few weeks ago, any exit controls, and someone with a UK passport has an absolute right of entry. Individual airlines might impose the requirement for their own reasons, and some destinations might require it for entry. But to leave and re-enter the UK? Citation or STFU. The claim is even more implausible for 17 year olds: does every young soldier, sailor or airman need a letter from their parents when they deploy?

No, of course they don't and there is no absolute requirement.

But travellers that 'ping' as suspicious will get quite long interviews. And girls travelling with unrelated people on a terrorist hotspot route are going to 'ping'.

The focus on the letter is probably misplaced (they might have simply been seeking to establish if the family were aware of the travel), and the exit interview might lead automatically to an entrance check too. They are as much interested in attitude as they are in precise answer.

Exactly SoupDragon
Want2be please can you show us the link to where these rules are stated. For the UK. Especially the notorisation.

I think the problem in all the sites I've visited today is the definition of child or children, they don't state ages on gov.uk website linked upthread, it also seems to be tucked away under "visas and immigration"
If it's a clear requirement why not just state it upfront.
Many 17 year olds are living away at uni, should we now give them a blanket travel letter along with their pots/ pans/ duvets

And I'd still like to know what the rule says about 16/17 year olds living away from home in Scotland. Where the age of Legal Capacity is 16

Excuse me for shouting but:

THE OP KEEPS SAYING THAT THERE IS NO STATED REQUIREMENT FOR A LETTER. THAT IS WHY HER DAUGHTER DID NOT HAVE A LETTER. SHE LOOKED, QUITE EXTENSIVELY, TO SEE IF A LETTER WAS NEEDED.

Possibly MrsS is at fault for not thinking 'oh, I should put in a letter just in case' but frankly that is about the only thing she can be accused of, surely?

Here is a link:

[https://www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad]

This page does need to be updated because it isn't specific enough. It doesn't say what age qualifies a person to be a child.

Also, things get quite complicated when it says 'You automatically have parental responsibility if you’re the child’s mother, but you still need the permission of anyone else with parental responsibility before you take the child abroad.' Well parents can have two mothers. How do you prove the other parent doesn't have parental responsibility? What about fathers? Don't we assume that fathers have parental responsibilities? If so, you would need documentation on hand to prove that.

This is just shockingly vague:

'A letter from the person with parental responsibility for the child is usually enough to show you’ve got permission to take them abroad. You might be asked for the letter at a UK or foreign border, or if there’s a dispute about taking a child abroad. The letter should include the other person’s contact details and details about the trip.

It also helps if you’ve:

evidence of your relationship with the child, eg a birth or adoption certificate
a divorce or marriage certificate, if you are a single parent but your family name is different from the child’s'

IMO 'usually' and 'might' are not the right words. It should say 'You can expect' instead of 'might' and I would rephrase the first sentence to make it explicitly clear what is needed to show that you have permission to take the child abroad.

I travel with my DC's birth certificates, my marriage certificate plus passports and visa. My kids each have 3 passports and I have 3 too. Been caught out before. I don't wear a wedding band and they were worried the letter from DH was authentic. That's why you need to get it notarized. How else do you prove that you are not intending to leave your DH?!?

Yes OP I agree with you! We took DS's girlfriend to France with us and we were questioned at the channel tunnel about it - we had no idea it would be a problem and neither did her parents. They let us through in the end but it was very awkward.

my parents were advised to do this when they took my young daughters on holiday. But they don't even follow up on these letters. She could have written one on your behalf. It's an odd situation IMHO.
I'm sorry your dd had a bad experience, she did what she could to check what she needed to do.

This is the page for the US which I think it is a lot clearer in many ways but still says it isn't a requirement to be notarized but says 'strongly recommended' and says Canada is stricter than the US.

help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/268/~/children---child-traveling-with-one-parent-or-someone-who-is-not-a-parent-or

IME notarization is needed if you want something rock solid that immigration can accept without asking a million and one questions or making phone calls to your spouse or PILs! (Yes Danish immigration called my PIL and SIL when I was heading out there on my own with the DC)

Apologies about the links but without the www they don't work and I don't have time to figure it out.

They may have been checking that she was the same person coming as the one who went. I'd say under the circumstances that's pretty important.

Myself and OH went on holiday together alone before we were both 18 and had to take letters from our parents giving permission. I'm sure we found this out online quite easily but this obviously was a few years ago now. I struggle to see what good this even does though as it surely would be very easy for a teenager to fake this letter? The whole system on this needs a rethink sooner rather than later, especially with everything that is going on in the world right now.

Must add we were never asked for these letters, outbound or incoming!