Aibu to think that attachment/ gentle/ natural parents minimise how dangerous sleep deprivation is

[ScrumpyBetty]

I have thought about writing this post for a while, and I want to write it in a respectful way, this is in no way about 'bashing' anyone for the parenting choices that they identify with or choose to make,

If you are an AP and you co- sleep, breastfeed on demand, choose gentle sleep training- I think brilliant! You are very lucky and well done for making it work for you.

When I was an anxious new mother, I identified very much with some of the things I read on AP websites and wanted to AP.
However after 18 months of waking up every night 6 or more times, I was at breaking point. Seriously sleep deprived, crying every day, anxious, depressed- I could go on. I reached out to the AP community for help and advice and was told to continue to use gentle sleep training methods such as the No Cry Sleep Solution, continue to Wait It Out, and definitely not to do controlled crying or CIO. But by this point we had been using the NO Cry Sleep Solution for months, gentle methods were not working!
I read loads of stuff on AP blogs and was given advice such as: let the housework slide and sleep when your baby sleeps! Try yoga or meditation to relax a bit more! Etc. loads of articles warned me about the perils of sleep training.

Eventually we did do controlled crying, and it wasn't that brutal, it was 3 nights of leaving DS to cry for no more than 5 mins at a time. He was 18 months and it was the best thing we ever did. I cannot stress how much of a better mum I am now that I am getting regular sleep!

I know I will be told I was silly to listen to AP advice when it quite clearly wasn't working for me, but I know loads of new mums who do AP and who do treat it like gospel, and who think that controlled crying is abhorrent.
I think that sleep deprivation is abhorrent, and if I hadn't done CC I may well have had a nervous breakdown, so what good would all that gentle parenting do then?
AIBu to think that AP/ natural parenting etc websites minimise the dangers of sleep deprivation- which are depression, mood swings, memory loss, a whole host of health problems? I agree that sleep training methods such as CC should be a last resort but if they need to be used then they need to be used surely?

Round of applause for Manatee!

It really bugs me when people talk about "doing" AP with a view to ensuring their baby is "securely attached" and well equipped for nursery/preschool/school, because genuine attachment disorders arise in extreme situations (as in genuine neglect and abuse) and not because the parent didn't babywear or refuse to let the baby cry for more than two minutes.

You clearly haven't suffered from sleep deprivation skeeter
I was depressed, due to lack of sleep. As soon as I started sleeping consistently at night, my mood improved ten thousandfold, as did my memory, concentration, physical health....real sleep deprivation is not something to be taken lightly and is actually hugely damaging. There has been loads of research to back this up.

*or LET the baby cry for more than two minutes

I never did CC or CIO with DS but I always knew that just like everyone I had a breaking point with sleep deprivation. DS was not a good sleeper and I did come close to reaching my limit but things always improved again before I stopped coping. I've never parented anyone else's child so I won't judge what their family needs (barring actual neglectful parenting).

While I'm at it, the sleep deprivation used in torture is literally ZERO sleep for days on end, with physical punishment (electrocution, water boarding, breaking fingers etc) to prevent the person from sleeping.

Broken sleep of (typical) parenthood whilst could still be called sleep deprivation is not comparable to torture (might feel like you're being tortured but you're not).

So you don't mind having broken sleep for years - super, that is great...for you. Not everyone is the same as you.

Parents like skeeter who write emotively about leaving children to cry, may make it harder for parents like myself to make the decision to sleep train using controlled crying. This can lead to severe sleep deprivation for the mother resulting in depression, memory loss, health problems from diabetes to heart problems, mental health problems and lack of ability to function as a mother.

Still skeeter if you're fine with that, you're fine with that.

Oh and round of applause for manatee

It really bugs me when people talk about "doing" AP with a view to ensuring their baby is "securely attached" and well equipped for nursery/preschool/school, because genuine attachment disorders arise in extreme situations (as in genuine neglect and abuse) and not because the parent didn't babywear or refuse to let the baby cry for more than two minutes.

Yes, people appear to have no idea what attachment disorder actually is, and the sorts of things that cause it (clue - it doesn't come about from being pushed in a buggy instead of carried about a the time in a sling). It's so naive.

I agree not everyone's the same, for some lack of sleep is really tough and they need a technique to fix it.

However it's not akin to the sleep deprivation used in torture, which was my point.

Scrummy you know my sleep pattern? Perhaps I have better coping strategies than you, perhaps I've been doing it so long my body has adjusted to it? Perhaps you shouldn't assume?

Scrumpy, I don't think it's wise to make assumptions about whether people you don't know have suffered sleep deprivation, and whether it is "real" sleep deprivation just because you don't like what they're saying.

Attachment disorder is an extreme, but plenty of children have insecure attachments which still have a huge effect on the rest of their lives.

The effect of cc is that you have a crying kid.

I don't even like the term 'gentle parenting' as it indicates that what, other parenting is 'harsh' parenting?

Exactly, I have felt really judged by very liberal parents who announced that their attachment parenting styles are all about kindness and being child-centred - with the implication that I'm a mean, heartless old witch for telling my child "no" when they snatch someone else's toy, or chivvy them to come for a walk even if they'd rather not.

I don't do those types of things because I want to upset my child and make them cry – even though it might sometimes have that effect –and I don't do them just to suit myself. I do them because I'm also thinking longer-term about helping them to learn how to behave around people, which IMO is a kindness they deserve too – or because actually, in some cases, I know best – I know that they don't want to shift their arses off the sofa but that once we get to the top of the hill with the kite they will have a whale of a time, and get loads of exercise, and then sleep better, and be happier the next day, etc etc etc which is better for them.

Just letting your child dictate what happens doesn't necessarily make them happier. Understanding that doesn't mean you have to zoom right to the other end of the scale and turn into a sergeant major. You can still be a loving, gentle, attached parent even if you do sometimes impose your will on your child.

Manatee - some of us don't consider sleeping with our children to be a major sacrifice. It worked really well for us - enough sleep all round.

skeeter You obv haven't been in a situation where you were so desperate for sleep that you needed to resort to using cc

Like I said in my previous post, what do you do when you have exhausted all off the gentle options, when you've tried osteopathy, aromatherapy, gradual retreat, NCss, everything, but nothing has worked. When you are ringing the Samaritans at 2 in the morning, sobbing down the phone that you can't carry on, and are so broken by utter sleep deprivation that you will try anything.
Have you been in this situation?

I find it astonishing that so many AP who are driven by an ideal of compassionate parenting show so little compassion to other woman

Attachment parenting is not permissive parenting.

I'm responsive and respectful to my lo's but I am also strict, fairly conservative and a stickler for manners etc.

Attachment disorder is an extreme, but plenty of children have insecure attachments which still have a huge effect on the rest of their lives.

Yes, which are still nothing to do with whether or not they were carried in a sling, whether or not they were picked up every time they squeaked, whether or not they slept in the same bed as their parents etc etc.

Skeeter - I know what you're saying. I, personally, didn't leave my kids to cry and I don't particularly like CC ( I despise CIO!) but I think there is a difference when you have an 18 month old who you go back into every couple of minutes to reassure and who knows where you are and a 6 month old. I also think there's a difference between going back in every couple of minutes and just closing the door on your baby's room at a certain time and walking away so I think that's why the distinction is being made.

Skeeter I know you're right, but there are many many parents who do seem to equate the two and then make out that if you are not as fully permissive as them, you are not into "attachment".

Now I can handle that as I'm reasonably confident in my middle-way, mix & match approach and I have older kids now. But I do think parents of new babies can feel very oppressed by these over-extended versions of "attachment" parenting which are actually about subsuming yourself entirely to meeting your child's every whim, and making you feel like a failure if you let them so much as make a whimper.

Go back in to*

Aldi - slings and co-sleeping don't guarantee a secure attachment, but I would say it totally is to do with whether they are responded to quickly and consistently as babies.

Op I just want to say that when I saw the title of your thread I thought 'oh dear this won't end well' but you worded your post so respectfully and thoughtfully and have been so polite and (dare I say it) restrained with your responses that for the most part this has been a really helpful discussion.

I completely understand the experience you had and the torture of feeling so sleep deprived. My dd is very similar and I also did last resort cc, but gave up as she got really wound up and threw up 4 times... thankfully she is gradually now sleeping longer stretches, but I've definitely had the week in hospital fantasy!!

Anyway I'm still sleep deprived enough to be a bit incoherent, but it's clear that we all love and want the best for our children, however we label it, and that forums should be read with the utmost caution!

If I could blow some kind of fairy dust on everyone reading this for a good night's sleep I would, but as it is have some

I think the horror of sleep deprivation is underestimated by everyone in maternity services. I remember my midwife coming for a visit when DS was about 3 weeks old and had been cluster feeding every 1.5 hours for 3 days straight. She said "And how's everything going?" and I, a hollow-eyed shell of a human being with my bra strap hanging out and my leggings on inside out, half-whispered "I'm just so tired". She said breezily "It's very tiring isn't it! But the breastfeeding is going well, he looks great!" She was lovely but no one seems to care how fucking traumatic sleep deprivation is.

I never had any intention to AP, I fed DS on demand initially but aimed for 3 hourly, always put him to sleep in his own bed & let him self settle as much as I could, gave him dummies from week 2 and a bottle early on too, with one bottle of formula from week 9. Never had him in a sling - had no intention of it - but had such a bad back from pregnancy it wouldn't have been possible even if I had. He's fine and still BFing well at 4.5 months, settles well to sleep by himself and in recent weeks has basically fallen into the Gina Ford routine with a few nudges from me. He wakes once in he night or a feed, generally, and on the nights where he wakes 2+ times I feel like the walking dead, I don't know how people manage it long term.

Have also had him in a cot in his own room sine 8 weeks whch has helps sleep, hi and mine & DH's, immensely. I always find it a bit weird on mumsnet how everyone seems prepared to totally disregard the SIDS advice re co-sleeping (which is far riskier in my view) but stick to the "6 months in your room" advice rigourously, when the supposed risk/benefit is actually quite negligible.

Bid disclaimer is the DS is pretty chilled, he's not a screamer & even when he wakesinth night just starts babbling to himself rather than roaring - so I don't know if his sleep/routine/setlingis the result of my superlative parenting or his personality. Apparently DH and I were both very placid babies and hellish teenagers

Scrumpy, my longest stretch with no sleep is 68 hours straight (yep I counted) it was so hard but I had no choice.

I started using quite meditation, switching off all stimulus whilst staying focused on my lo. My brain was able to rest for 10-15 mins every 1-2 hours. This made me able to care for my lo (however basic food, cleaning and love) and survive. It's not ideal but in an emergency situation allows you to push through until you reach a point that you are able to completely switch off, for me that was once my lo could breath independently.

I'm not saying lack of sleep is a breeze, but for most it's transient, you either accept it and cope or you change it. You changed it and you need to make peace with that, because it sounds like you're not completely comfortable with it.

Attachment disorder is an extreme, but plenty of children have insecure attachments which still have a huge effect on the rest of their lives.

And whether or not the parents do AP will have absolutely no effect on the child's attachment style. I really don't think this can be repeated often enough.

AP is grand if it works for you. But if you're busting a gut to follow the precepts because you think there will be a payoff in terms of your child's psychological health then you need to stop, because all your efforts will be wasted. You would be better off putting the same effort into seeing a good psychotherapist who can help you avoid passing your attachment issues on to your child.

Depends what you mean by "AP" surely?