Aibu to think that attachment/ gentle/ natural parents minimise how dangerous sleep deprivation is

[ScrumpyBetty]

I have thought about writing this post for a while, and I want to write it in a respectful way, this is in no way about 'bashing' anyone for the parenting choices that they identify with or choose to make,

If you are an AP and you co- sleep, breastfeed on demand, choose gentle sleep training- I think brilliant! You are very lucky and well done for making it work for you.

When I was an anxious new mother, I identified very much with some of the things I read on AP websites and wanted to AP.
However after 18 months of waking up every night 6 or more times, I was at breaking point. Seriously sleep deprived, crying every day, anxious, depressed- I could go on. I reached out to the AP community for help and advice and was told to continue to use gentle sleep training methods such as the No Cry Sleep Solution, continue to Wait It Out, and definitely not to do controlled crying or CIO. But by this point we had been using the NO Cry Sleep Solution for months, gentle methods were not working!
I read loads of stuff on AP blogs and was given advice such as: let the housework slide and sleep when your baby sleeps! Try yoga or meditation to relax a bit more! Etc. loads of articles warned me about the perils of sleep training.

Eventually we did do controlled crying, and it wasn't that brutal, it was 3 nights of leaving DS to cry for no more than 5 mins at a time. He was 18 months and it was the best thing we ever did. I cannot stress how much of a better mum I am now that I am getting regular sleep!

I know I will be told I was silly to listen to AP advice when it quite clearly wasn't working for me, but I know loads of new mums who do AP and who do treat it like gospel, and who think that controlled crying is abhorrent.
I think that sleep deprivation is abhorrent, and if I hadn't done CC I may well have had a nervous breakdown, so what good would all that gentle parenting do then?
AIBu to think that AP/ natural parenting etc websites minimise the dangers of sleep deprivation- which are depression, mood swings, memory loss, a whole host of health problems? I agree that sleep training methods such as CC should be a last resort but if they need to be used then they need to be used surely?

I don't think waking up a lot is an issue as long as you can get back to sleep. I think that may be why cosleeping/BF works for some people because they don't have to actually get up/wake up fully in order to comfort the baby/toddler.

I am not commenting on parenting styles but the dangers of sleep deprivation

Sleep deprivation does cause slowing of reaction times, just like alcohol, in fact tired drivers kill 10 times more people than drunk drivers. Sleep deprivation can lead to poor decision making and mistakes as posters above have said depression , anxiety etc

Historically when doctors worked on call for whole weekends by Sunday outcomes for patients treated by tired doctors were poorer by a long way even allowing for junior staff etc

It is not just the obvious jobs like surgeons pilots and lorry drivers that need to be alert to work properly, many people are driving to work and doing school runs etc too tired to make quick enough good decisions, and are not only endangering themselves but their DC and other people. Everyone has a personal responsibility to be alert enough to do what they are doing or not do it if you are too drunk to drive you don't drive as not safe, you should also not drive if too tired to drive, hence the motorway signs " tiredness kills take a break"

I stand by my comment that AP parents minimise the dangers of sleep deprivation. There are loads of articles and blogs about how harmful sleep training can be, but when you go to an AP community, in desperation as I did, and say 'hello, the gentle methods are not working for me, I'm at breaking point'- you get told to just carry on with the gentle methods. Carry on waking up 6 times a night, for as many years as it might take for DS to learn to sleep for more than a few hours at a time. This is dangerous advice.

But you were so determined to follow AP that you were taking this advice given by strangers to the detriment of your own health even though you knew it wasn't working - that doesn't make the advice bad per se, just not appropriate for you. Why would people for whom those techniques had worked even be in a position to advise anything else? Why would they say 'CIO' when they had no idea whether that would work either?

Nobody can force to you take advice, good or bad - you were asking for AP advice and you got it. There are loads of articles and blogs about how dangerous sleep deprivation can be, but you weren't seeking those out and taking their advice - you have to accept responsibility for your own decisions at some point. It sounds to me that if the AP parents concerned are guilty of anything, it's expecting people to reach their own conclusions about when trying those techniques isn't getting the results they are after.

There's so much bashing of each other as parents and it makes me sad (not saying that you've bashed anyone by the way OP).

Surely as long as both you and baby are doing away works for you that's all that matters?

There's enough guilt in parenting as it is.

I honestly question peoples expectations of parenthood? Do people not factor in to their lives that for the first few years of having a young child that their sleep will most likely be affected?

Expectation is what it comes down to, ap/gp parents getberally expect to have wakeful nights for at least 2 years so are usually mentally prepared to a degree. I suspect other more mainstream parents may have slightly less realistic expectations so are shocked when they're still getting up with their toddler, and then look for fixes to make them sleep.

I completely agree. If ap methods work for you, great, but to suggest a woman (and it always is the woman) who is severely sleep deprived should just wait it out is inhumane Imo. And waiting it out is nearly always suggested - some idiot will come along and airily tell the op that they know just how they feel because they haven't slept a night through in ten years. But if course you can't sleep train because it will damage your baby.

Actually, some children sleep 100% better after sleep training. They can be sleep deprived too, just through having poor sleep habits. I know my eldest was, because I was so against sleep training. She was a far happier child after I just did it.

I made the mistake of trying to follow BLWing to the letter and thought that I was a failure if I spoon fed my DS some yoghurt but I soon got over myself and am happy to spoon feed when necessary to avoid mess

Ah yes, if you ever spoon feed them, then it's not true BLW!

As it happens I did do BLW (ie. I never puréed a single thing) with both of mine, and was positively evangelical about it in private. But in public, if people asked, I would say 'yes, we just give her food, it's called Baby Led Weaning, but that sounds so wanky doesn't it' with an obligatory eye roll!

But that's all it was OP advice. The same aa you'd get advice from MW HV or family. You have a responsibility to decide what works for you and do that.

Having realistic expectations doesn't protect you from sleep deprivation. What a stupid thing to say.

I honestly question peoples expectations of parenthood? Do people not factor in to their lives that for the first few years of having a young child that their sleep will most likely be affected?

First few years?

Hell no!

The key thing with controlled crying is that the baby's age has a lot to do with it. Sleep deprivation with a newborn is a given, with a toddler or older, not so much.

The importance of establishing a routine according to some of the baby books confuses new parents, who think that it is advisable to start putting the baby down and leaving them to cry from a very very young age, when babies need the comfort of their mother the most.

Implementing CC, or other sleep training, with a two year old who is beginning to understand how the world works is a completely different scenario to attempting to put a four week old baby into a different room and expecting it to fall asleep on its own.

No but it does allow you to prepare yourself for it, be that putting yourself in the financial position to extend mat leave, organising shift changes, babysitters, flexible work pattern or not returning to work at all.

If you get a kid that sleeps, awesome! If not then at least you've done as much as possible to allow yourself to accommodate finding sleep with a wakeful child.

itmustbebedtimesurely thank you, i agree with you x 100!

I know dojo I now see how foolish I was to follow advice of strangers on the Internet about sleep, especially when it wasn't working. I think I desperately wanted AP to work for me, and I felt (wrongly) that if I had to do controlled crying then I would be a bad parent or a failure, because it had been so drummed in to me by all the AP stuff I'd read. I know, I know- next time around I won't read anything and will just do what works. As a first time parent, I was very anxious and looked to AP as the 'ideal' - even though I can see how misguided I was to do do.

Different things work for different people. I never wanted to co-sleep but with ds2 I had no choice. It was the only way he would sleep, he also screamed his head off if I put him down. He woke hourly even with co-sleeping but at least he slept in between and I could feed him back to sleep without getting up.
Co-sleeping meant I got just enough sleep to function.
He is three now, sleeps in his own bed but still wakes once a night most nights. He's just not a good sleeper.

I tried sleep training, doesn't work with him.

DS1 was a great sleeper, in a cot in his own room by 4 months, yes it was much easier but that's because he was much easier in general. Before I started co-sleeping with ds2 I spent two weeks awake all night, every night (Dh used to let me doze for an hour before he went to work in the mornings). It was torture.
The whole house got more sleep if I co-slept with ds2.

The average age for sttn (which technically only means 5 hours consistent sleep) is anywhere between 6-18 months.

I stand by my comment that AP parents minimise the dangers of sleep deprivation. There are loads of articles and blogs about how harmful sleep training can be, but when you go to an AP community, in desperation as I did, and say 'hello, the gentle methods are not working for me, I'm at breaking point'- you get told to just carry on with the gentle methods. Carry on waking up 6 times a night, for as many years as it might take for DS to learn to sleep for more than a few hours at a time. This is dangerous advice.

If you talk to anyone who is evangelical about anything, they will never see another way. The trick is to know when to ignore them as it isn't for you. It's so very hard through the haze of sleep deprivation to make good choices, I know that, you know that, we all know that. However taking heed of someone, especially random internet strangers, who clearly aren't listening to you can never be good - whether it's to do with parenting methods or anything else.

My advice to any new parent would be to find your own way - read around subjects if that's your thing (it's certainly mine) however take some bits from one and some from another, whatever suits you. Don't become tied to one label or method, there are very few of us that fall so neatly into groups.

Yes it's dangerous and irresponsible to advise a sleep deprived anxious parent to carry on with something that isn't working - but at the same time we all need to learn to walk away from things that are making life worse for ourselves. Have a little faith in your own reaction to things - don't let yourself be talked into things you don't want

One of the reasons I was an attachment parent, or somthing approximating one, was that I wanted an easy life with lots of sleep!

No but it does allow you to prepare yourself for it, be that putting yourself in the financial position to extend mat leave, organising shift changes, babysitters, flexible work pattern or not returning to work at all.

Huh? Do people honestly go through the thought process of 'right, I am not going to go back to work after a year of maternity leave just in case my baby isn't a good sleeper'? Most people don't have that option do they?

Surely if you said to your employer, 'I would like flexible working because I refuse to use any sort of sleep training with my kid and consequently they wake up loads in the night and I am too tired to do my job properly', they would just say 'um well, you might need to do something to help your 2 year old sleep throug and enable you to get enough sleep to come into work, rather than expecting us to sort it out for you?'

People get so hung up on the 'rules' of AP, they forget that AP is about being responsive to your own child and balancing needs of the family. A child that is miserable because they are up half the night and parent that is on their knees through tiredness and unable to function is not being responsive or balancing anything. I had a baby who did not cope well with bed sharing or even sharing a room with us. He slept better and was happier on his own, in a dark room. So that's what we did. I think people get so hung up on the idea of natural parenting, they think it's a rigid rule book of dos and don't, rather than guidance. I'm not an advocate of CC by any means, but the way it is spoken about in AP circles, you'd think parents were lining the cot with barbed wire and leaving the country. Using CC after 18 months of trying gentle methods will not break your child, it wont break the bond between you and screw them up for life. But it might stop you falling asleep at the wheel of the car and killing them. It might make you a better parent because you aren't crying and vomiting through exhaustion.

It's a bit like babywearing. If you have a baby who hates being in a sling (of any kind), it is not AP to rigidly stick to using it regardless of the screaming and misery, while viewing a pushchair as the devil's own wheelbarrow. Truly going by AP means tailoring parenting to the child. Some children despise slings and love being in a pushchair.

My parenting philosophy is that I do whatever is easiest until it isn't. So I co-slept happily until suddenly her wake ups were more lively and it started leading to negative things. So I moved her out and sorted the problem in a few days. I find this is how it works for lots of things. You put up with/do things a certain way till the negative us stronger than the positive, then you change your approach.

According to the geneva convention sleep depravation is a form of torture and after a year of waking up several times per night i could see why.

I tried the gentle approach until i had to go back to work. My only regret about cc is not doing it earlier. When i say irl that i used cc some ppl open their eyes as if they just saw a ghost, and others say "yes we did it too but we thought we were the only ones!".

I may be missing the point somewhat but I fail to understand why parents needs to adopt / follow parenting methods?

Surely you just do what you need to do and learn as you go along? that is that I did anyway

No book or website can teach you how to manage your own child?

My children are long grown up, I realise now I did AP but it didn't have a name back then. I found it meant I got a good nights sleep every night, night feeds couldn't be easier if you are BF and sleeping together, you don't even need to properly wake up to do it.

I think you do what's right for your child.

I ended up as an AP not through a decision but because cosleeping was the only way I got sleep. Bfing on demand was the easiest option. I couldn't be bothered to sleep train, was far too much hard work (by this point dd was only really waking 2-3 times a night and settled almost instantly)

If/when we have another I will probably lean towards the ap option but if he/she is happy to sleep without me then great.

I think choosing parenting style and sticking to it doggedly even if it doesn't work for your dc just leads to stress and worry.

YABU.

So AP didn't work for you, it doesn't work for everyone. I have a child who happily takes herself to bed at 7.00 p.m. every night and sleeps through until 8.30 the next day. I had zero sleep deprivation. So for many AP doesn't lead to sleep deprivation. That is probably why they didn't even have a clue what you were talking about, because it wasn't their experience. The forums can't talk about the dangers of sleep deprivation if they don't know anything about it.