Aibu to think that attachment/ gentle/ natural parents minimise how dangerous sleep deprivation is

[ScrumpyBetty]

I have thought about writing this post for a while, and I want to write it in a respectful way, this is in no way about 'bashing' anyone for the parenting choices that they identify with or choose to make,

If you are an AP and you co- sleep, breastfeed on demand, choose gentle sleep training- I think brilliant! You are very lucky and well done for making it work for you.

When I was an anxious new mother, I identified very much with some of the things I read on AP websites and wanted to AP.
However after 18 months of waking up every night 6 or more times, I was at breaking point. Seriously sleep deprived, crying every day, anxious, depressed- I could go on. I reached out to the AP community for help and advice and was told to continue to use gentle sleep training methods such as the No Cry Sleep Solution, continue to Wait It Out, and definitely not to do controlled crying or CIO. But by this point we had been using the NO Cry Sleep Solution for months, gentle methods were not working!
I read loads of stuff on AP blogs and was given advice such as: let the housework slide and sleep when your baby sleeps! Try yoga or meditation to relax a bit more! Etc. loads of articles warned me about the perils of sleep training.

Eventually we did do controlled crying, and it wasn't that brutal, it was 3 nights of leaving DS to cry for no more than 5 mins at a time. He was 18 months and it was the best thing we ever did. I cannot stress how much of a better mum I am now that I am getting regular sleep!

I know I will be told I was silly to listen to AP advice when it quite clearly wasn't working for me, but I know loads of new mums who do AP and who do treat it like gospel, and who think that controlled crying is abhorrent.
I think that sleep deprivation is abhorrent, and if I hadn't done CC I may well have had a nervous breakdown, so what good would all that gentle parenting do then?
AIBu to think that AP/ natural parenting etc websites minimise the dangers of sleep deprivation- which are depression, mood swings, memory loss, a whole host of health problems? I agree that sleep training methods such as CC should be a last resort but if they need to be used then they need to be used surely?

disappointed no one is talking about any of those things, no one is advocating leaving a tiny weeks old baby to cry it out, or only feed at an allocated time or any of the other things you mentioned? This is not at all what this thread is about and totally not relevant at all. I don't understand why you are even bringing it up.

My original post was about how we resorted to controlled crying as a last resort after the gentle methods repeatedly failed. We did it respectfully and as gently as possible and it was honestly the best thing we ever did.

Surely before you plan/have a child you think through the possible implications? I'd say lack of sleep is a given, why not do a bit of research before hand? Read up on average sleep patterns if babies and young children, seperation anxiety. Knowledge is power.

I had my first at 17, all through my pregnancy I researched physiological norms for babies and children, I prepared myself for the possible outcome that my child might be a child that didn't sleep, cried constantly, had colic etc, etc. as it turned out she didn't sttn until over 3 years.

Scrumpy, I think some of the replies here prove your point!

So for all of the AP posters on here who have said that AP actually helped them to get more sleep and it was beneficial for them, I say again, great that it worked for you, well done.

Can any of you empathise with women who cannot cope with multiple wakings a night, whose mental health suffers from numerous night wakings, mothers who cannot just go back to sleep quickly after each waking bumbleymummy and who are so severely affected by lack of sleep that they struggle to function each day? Many of you say you would not choose to do controlled crying, well what would you do, out of interest?

Skeeter but did you not find research and reality different? Throw in pnd, PNA or just baby blues for example.

With regards to research, as I keep saying, I think forums and FB groups can be unhelpful in that badly phrased and judgemental views shout loudest.
For example, The Badass Breastfeeder talks about these kind of comments/attitudes a lot ( recently about looking down on women who use a nursing scarf - and here about nursing in public www.thebadassbreastfeeder.com/you-are-not-the-center-of-the-universe/ ) ok that's about feeding not sleeping but don't read the comments should be the mantra for anyone plagued by baby guilt!
I have found several AP and GP blogs that encourage understanding, but sadly some where the culture is very unhelpful and could lead to people to think you have to be a martyr or are "evil" if you do certain things.
Also fuels misunderstanding about what AP is (eg it's "doing things" on a tick box list when your child is a baby, and if you don't do them you fail ... not more of a philosophy or culture).

Such is the curse of the Internet I suppose.

I think the key here is balance.

Ap has 7 elements and the one that holds it together is balancing the needs of both child and parent. If you struggle with getting less sleep then that's not a part of ap that works for you, so don't use it.

Instead try gradual retreat
Replace the care giver who gets up with baby or take turns
Co sleep
Use essential oils to promote sleep
Hire a night nanny
Cranial osteopathy
Completely change the bedtime routine

I've got a few more but my battery's going.

Babies are all different.

I suppose how I parent could be called attachment parenting: I co-sleep, breastfeed on demand, no sleep training whatsoever, sling carry. I just do what feels right though.

Dd2 is 5 weeks old, and has slept through the night with only one feed more or less since birth. I think I am just lucky.

I think anything taken to extremes and done very rigidly is going to cause problems. As others have said there's a large middle ground, it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.

I was not into imposing a strict regime for example, but nor was I 100% led by the baby – i was led by the baby's natural routines but we gradually began to encourage a "bedtime" at around 7pm and got into that habit over several months. Just one example. I would not follow "cry it out" and let a baby cry for ages, however it's normal for a baby to have to cry for 5-10 minutes if they wake up when you're in the shower, or you're hurrying to get them home for a delivery/HV appointment or something and they're screaming in the buggy (happened to me several times). Babies cry and 5 mins isn't anything to worry about IMO, as long as they do get your love and reassurance sooner rather than later. It's important for a child to get what they need, and gradually learn that other people have needs too and sometimes they have to wait a bit or fit in with a plan or whatever.

I think one problem is there are these parenting theories about attachment etc., and then there are people who go right off the deep end with it. I've known parents who refuse to allow the world "no" to be heard near their child, will not do anything if the child doesn't feel like it, will not give their child a bedtime just let them stay up till 2am - it's not good for kids at all imo. And there's no law that you have to let this kind of person tell you how to parent.

I would imagine some of them might find themselves trying controlled crying even though they didn't want to, like you did.

Oh god yes, ap has set back equality by years.

Skeeter exactly. That's how I see it.

For example I have a chronic back problem. So I can't wear my baby as much as I would ideally.
Doesn't mean I think "oh well, I failed. Gina Ford and boarding school it is, Little Squizita. .." But on one FB sling group I experienced users who more or less told me I was being selfish and should either get painkillers (Erm breastfeeding!?) or suffer.
At which point I left that group because ... well common sense!

Also I have read before that parents who are totally child led and get up 25 times a night and won't do any type of even gentle sleep training, can often be the ones who crack (because they're sleep deprived and losing it) and in desperation switch to quite harsh controlled crying (though I know this isn't you OP) - resulting in an even more confused and upset baby.

Moderation and middle ground makes sense surely.

I unfortunately suffered PNA with with my 1st and 2nd lo's (with my 2nd I also had pnd and OCD).

I feel that knowing what was average/normal gave me realistic expectations, knowing that there's a huge growth spurt at 4 months (and why) gave me reassurance that my milk was still enough, that I wasn't doing anything 'wrong' and that this was the physiological norm really helped my mental health.

Of course all babies are different but they do tend to follow a developmental and growth timeline, understanding that really promotes confidence in parents and helps them to listen to their instincts and find the path that works best for them.

Heels, what do you mean?

YY. I think my mistake is I used forums because I was used to mumsnet ... and some were very judgy and inaccurate iyswim. They fuelled my PNA (especially as it follows multiple pregnancy loss so there's "survivor guilt" in there).

Incidentally, can anyone recommend a good positive discipline book?

Exactly Squizita, with my 3rd lo I exclusively wore from birth, ebf (practicing natural term weaning), co sleep etc BUT my lo has complex SN, there's lots of AP things that we just can't do eg my lo has significant sensory issues which makes her cry A LOT there's nothing I can do about it, so I do the bit of AP that work for her and I and feel content that it's the best I can do.

I think that most posters have it right - find your own way. But I do agree with OP that AP advocates can place A LOT of pressure on people to do things their way, and seem almost evangelical about their way: I think AP sounds so lovely and attractive and 'natural' but really it's another parenting dogma, in the hands of its activists.
This article made me feel a lot better about CIO when so many bloody huffington post articles and shared scare articles made me feel like a monster: www.troublesometots.com/is-sleep-training-child-abuse/

How to talk so children will listen and listen so children will talk, is good, as is toddler calm.

There's a few others I'll dig some out.

Skeeter we tried all of your suggestions before we resorted to controlled crying. We paid loads for 6 sessions of osteopathy, we tried aromatherapy, we tried changing our routine, DH and I both took turns with the night wakings and we were both exhausted, we tried voodoo incantations (only jokingly) - I would have loved a night nanny but no way could we have afforded one. We tried gradual retreat, shush pat. Pick up, put down ( what a joke) We were desperate. We tried everything I could practically recite the No Cry Sleep Solution by heart!
This is what I am saying. AP parents promoted everything on your list to me, and I tried it all and more. Nothing worked. Desperation and sheer exhaustion meant that our only option was co trolled crying.

"will not give their child a bedtime"

We never enforced a bedtime. DD is absolutely a night owl - as a baby she would be up till around 11pm with us, and sleep till 11am the next morning. This naturally shifted over the years to a preference to sleep from 9.30pm-ish to 9:30am the next day. Indeed, that's what she was doing the week before she started school full time. She had a week or so of being tired and now can cope with 8/8:30pm-7:45am during the week with a lie in at weekends. I lost count of the number of people that told me that I should "get her into a 7-7 routine from the word go". Why? That would have given her 30-40 minutes a day with her father instead of the few hours that they enjoyed. We couldn't have eaten out or gone to visit friends of an evening.

As it happens it works for us. I do my uni work most nights between 10pm and 3am. Before that I'd be ironing when the milkman was doing the rounds.

"Oh god yes, ap has set back equality by years."

It's attachment PARENTING, not attachment MUMMYING.

Frankly, there won't be true equality until women aren't the only ones carrying and giving birth to children (i.e., never).

I think that those capable of ignoring the cries of a tiny baby only a few weeks or months old, or who have a desperate need to squeeze their child into a rigid routine from birth etc are more likely to do other things down the line that cause issues for the child.

What a load of bollocks unevidenced assertion.

OP I agree, chronic, serious sleep deprivation is quicksand for everyone's wellbeing, and anyone who tells you it's a matter of adjusting your expectations or recommitting to a given parenting method at all costs simply hasn't been through it.

Did you co sleep?

Tinymeteor attempting to force anyone to do something they physically or emotionally can't do is never going to have a far reaching overwhelmingly positive outcome.