Aibu to think that attachment/ gentle/ natural parents minimise how dangerous sleep deprivation is

[ScrumpyBetty]

I have thought about writing this post for a while, and I want to write it in a respectful way, this is in no way about 'bashing' anyone for the parenting choices that they identify with or choose to make,

If you are an AP and you co- sleep, breastfeed on demand, choose gentle sleep training- I think brilliant! You are very lucky and well done for making it work for you.

When I was an anxious new mother, I identified very much with some of the things I read on AP websites and wanted to AP.
However after 18 months of waking up every night 6 or more times, I was at breaking point. Seriously sleep deprived, crying every day, anxious, depressed- I could go on. I reached out to the AP community for help and advice and was told to continue to use gentle sleep training methods such as the No Cry Sleep Solution, continue to Wait It Out, and definitely not to do controlled crying or CIO. But by this point we had been using the NO Cry Sleep Solution for months, gentle methods were not working!
I read loads of stuff on AP blogs and was given advice such as: let the housework slide and sleep when your baby sleeps! Try yoga or meditation to relax a bit more! Etc. loads of articles warned me about the perils of sleep training.

Eventually we did do controlled crying, and it wasn't that brutal, it was 3 nights of leaving DS to cry for no more than 5 mins at a time. He was 18 months and it was the best thing we ever did. I cannot stress how much of a better mum I am now that I am getting regular sleep!

I know I will be told I was silly to listen to AP advice when it quite clearly wasn't working for me, but I know loads of new mums who do AP and who do treat it like gospel, and who think that controlled crying is abhorrent.
I think that sleep deprivation is abhorrent, and if I hadn't done CC I may well have had a nervous breakdown, so what good would all that gentle parenting do then?
AIBu to think that AP/ natural parenting etc websites minimise the dangers of sleep deprivation- which are depression, mood swings, memory loss, a whole host of health problems? I agree that sleep training methods such as CC should be a last resort but if they need to be used then they need to be used surely?

I think each child and therefore each method, even with children in the same family, can be different. And if it works for the child and the parent then that's brilliant.

I have one DS (7). He put himself in Gina Ford's (sorry I have a feeling you're not allowed to type her name on here or something) routine aged about 4 weeks. You could set your watch by him. He was hungry when she said he would be. He had 3 naps a day at the time she said he would and slept EXACTLY for the length of time she suggested. It was absolutely nothing to do with me but it worked for him. I was all for feeding on demand! He was the most 'routine' easy-going happy baby I have ever met. He hardly ever cried as I knew he was going to be hungry or tired before he had to tell me iyswim.

BUT. We did controlled crying at 8 weeks. That is something I have NEVER admitted in RL before and I'm quite ashamed. From 7pm in the evening the poor little mite cried and cried and would not go to sleep. Even if I was in bed with him and he was lying on me, he still cried. In the end DH gently suggested we do the controlled crying thing. I hated it. It was torture. But it worked and from about 10 weeks DS would fall asleep on his own. We dream fed him at 11pm and he slept through till 7am. He never woke crying as he learnt to settle himself to sleep. I still beat myself up sometimes that he was too little. That I should have tried something else first but I just didn't have a clue what else to try. I had never heard of AP. I do think that you can teach a baby to settle themselves back to sleep if they wake. But I still think 8 weeks was way WAY too little.

Anyway, each to their own OP but I'm glad things have worked out for you now.

I think it's more how some online sources mis understand or represent things. I have anxiety and read up on line ... I didn't wash etc at times because I thought to have needs was "selfish" and would emotionally scar dd if I put her down for a second! Because I was going with the extreme, black and white badly written comments on Facebook and the like.
Then I had a eureka moment ... how would anyone write their blog? About their TWO children? My dd has a dad who also needs contact time etc.

I am still very much in the GP mindset, but I tend to be critical of my reading sources now. Anything using guilt or telling a mum to switch off her needs or emotions is OUT (often American Christian AP sites do this) ... because what is the point of raising a person gently to then yolk them into being a robot?
It's gentle PARENTING not mum-ing only, and I would also say (if your lucky enough to have family near) gentle extended family care.

There are media sources out there that ignore the needs of the mum or expect her to martyr herself. These not only cause heartache but give us lentil weavers a bad name.

If the mum is really suffering, it's not gentle on anyone.
I would put it in the same category as baby wearing when my back is out (dh does it or we use a pram... and it's clear why!) or breastfeeding if a woman couldn't make enough milk (she'd bottle feed ... and it would be clear why!).
If sleep is a problem, there shouldn't be guilt about being flexible iyswim. As an exhausted and suffering mum isn't good for herself or her babes.

I think there is often confusion between CC (controlled crying) and CIO(cry it out). I, personally, wouldn't use either but there is a difference between going in every few minutes to soothe a baby(CC) and just putting them in their cot, closing the door and walking away(CIO)! Some people on MN have proudly admitted using the latter on 5 week olds! I also know someone who said she was using CC when it turned out she was just leaving the baby to cry until she feel asleep. :(

You have to choose the parenting style that works for you.

It isn't the fault of the style that AP didn't work for you- it just perhaps wasn't a technique that suited your personality, or your childs.

I practice AP and I have never been sleep deprived.

Humans would have died out thousands of years ago if babies were left in caves to cry themselves to sleep.

I'm currently studying attachment theory as part of my degree, and it's completely fascinating. I'm intrigued by how some adults think babies will just magically fit into these routines and do what the parents want if they ignore them. My mum built a 40 year career fixing the issues caused by neglectful parents, and teachers and carers have to practically regress children back to babies to correct attachment issues. I could not have ignored DD if I'd wanted to (I didn't). And frankly, a content child is far more important to me than clean skirting boards or washing curtains.

"In order to become independent, they first have to be dependent."

Bumbley YY and it works both ways. I've seen people who use CC or Pantley style "no cry" stuff being called Cry It Out monsters and child abusers by strangers on some FB groups. Whilst I wouldn't use CC (1) I can see it is not CIO and (2) banding about the word child abuse is just vile.
On a personal level I feel it discredits my parenting choices to be associated with hysterical/deliberately hyperbolic stuff like that.

"In order to become independent, they first have to be dependent."*

Completely agree.
And yet one of the criticisms of AP is that it raises dependant children- when in fact I believe the oppostite is true.

You shouldn’t really be surprised op, but I’m fence sitting about whether its unreasonable or not….AP- or indeed any other ‘approach’ or ‘method’ that is bandied about on the internet/books etc is just a set of beliefs when it come downs to it…..From Gina Ford routine types to AP type parents. If you believe in that approach then you seek out ‘evidence’ that its good/harmful to do it another way. It’s a lot like political beliefs really - most people don't have a good grasp of what good evidence is and how you criticaly analyse information.
Of course there is quite a lot scientific evidence based research on parenting styles and their effects on children (but not as much on sleep as you would think) but it’s complicated to summarise and not very accessible to the general public (either in readability or access). I blame my research psychologist colleagues.
Also in general it tends to be less black and white in terms of advice (not surprising really- raising children is a complex messy business which doesn’t lend itself to reductionist simple principles). And when we are tired and stressed and a bit anxious about whether we are ‘getting it right’ we want nice simple back and white answers. If only it were as simple as “do A and B and your child will turn out like C”

Disappointed people are talking mental health issues caused by sleep deprivation here, not 50s housewife clean skirting boards.
When I was having an anxiety attack early on, I felt if my baby ever cried I was abusing her. I was on the verge of self harm the loathing I felt for myself as a bad mother. It was awful.

Luckily my dh and DM were AP supportive so I got the help I needed.

My career has also been with neglected kids. Real neglect (as in the stuff that needs in depth therapy) is like nothing we are describing here. Cold, distant parenting is a different issue (and the culture a lot of the kids I work with come from Co sleeps and breastfeeds as standard ... then piles on the rules etc later. AP baby care is NOT a magic bullet).

YABU and patronising.
I co-slept precisely in order NOT to be sleep deprived and breastfed on demand for a length of time that would get me onto Jeremy Kile. I would, however, no sooner have put dd in s cloth nappy or carried her round in a sling all day than I would vote UKIP so what does that make me? Am I still worthy of your condescension OP?

Nothing quite so boringly evangelical as a mother convinced it's her way, or wrong eh?

"then piles on the rules etc later. "

THat's not AP though. AP is not just something that is done with babies. I still use the AP philosophies and my kids are teenagers.

humans would have died out thousands of years ago if babies had been left alone in caves to cry themselves to sleep

Back then, it was purely about survival, not about trying to be super parents. Nowadays, things have changed and we don't need to sleep with our children for reasons of survival,so we have a choice about how we can parent.

Writing about 'neglectful' parenting in the context of this thread is distressing because all parents here have talked about trying to make the right decisions for them and their families, and as far as I can see, all parents here care deeply about their children.
I maintain that if AP co- sleeping and waking numerous times a night works for you then fine.

It didn't work for me. It left me dangerously sleep deprived and my mental health very shaky. doing controlled crying is not neglectful and I find the insinuation that it is so, very disturbing. Would you have had me carry on waking up countless times a night, surviving on 4 broken hours of sleep and reaching near breakdown just for the sake of some attachment ideal?

Fullto YY sorry - to clarify I am still kind of talking about your "Internet quick fix" idea of AP - breast feed, Co sleep, use a sling slag off other mums which as I said on another post up thread is not what AO or GP is about.

I wish there was a term "gentle family" as to my mind it's more accurate.

... not YOUR as in personally, sorry. London accent "your" as in "what you see about"!

But babies haven't changed in that short time- how can they work out that they haven't been left on the forest floor rather than some safe cot?

Monophasic sleep is a modern Weastern idea. We can survive on broken sleep indefinately for years- as long as we get enough sleep in a 24 hour period. Many cultures do.

I didn't know I was an attached parent when I was doing it. My husband worked away during the week and was only home for 36 hours a week, my parents lived thousands of miles away (abroad) and I had no other family within 250 miles. I (exclusively) expressed all of her milk. I had an amazing group of friends whose babies woke early and always looked pristine. I was the one running into the baby massage class 5 minutes late with a baby in her car seat fast asleep and still in her bedtime babygro at 10:30am.

And I wouldn't change it for the world. Most babies sleep during the day, and I'd catch up when she slept. She's 4.5 and I still do the bare minimum housework-wise. Life's too bloody short.

I think any parent who sets out to conform to any 'style' of parenting from the outset and continues it even though they are suffering is on to a loser. Parenting to me has been based on the child I have and the family life I live and a lot of trying new things and luck! So getting advice from any stringent community who conform to one way has always been a no to me. So I ended up FF but I do BLW. I baby wear with an ergonomic carrier but also use a buggy. I haven't sleep trained (yet, I don't feel I will but I'm not at the end of my tether yet) but DS had a bedtime routine from early and also I put him to sleep alone in his cot between his bedtime and my bedtime before he was 6 months. He hated co sleeping so that wasn't going to happen! So a mixture of 'styles' but all things that worked for us and make us happy.

dranksangriainthepark you obviously haven't read my original post?! You have no idea what this thread is about

I have been in no way condescending towards AP, stating many times that if it works for you then it's brilliant. This is not an AP bashing thread. Why don't you read the original post and then make a useful comment.

disapponted I'm glad it worked for you and that you were happy.
What would you advise other parents to do then, who are having problems with AP and sleep, to the point where their mental and physical health is greatly suffering?

I believe that responsive parenting was absolutely the right way to parent my children but if it wasn't working for us then I would have tried controlled crying too. I did try it once. I set up a cot, I fed baby and put her in the cot. She screamed for 3 minutes while I sat and watched her break her heart screaming for me. (She was 9 months) I realised that it wasn't for me or her and I picked her up and cuddled her to sleep. If she had responded better, then we would have continued. If I was not so affected by her crying, it might have been different.

Don't we all start out with ideas about what kind of parents we are going to be and then bend and adapt with our children along the way?

I'm currently studying attachment theory as part of my degree, and it's completely fascinating. I'm intrigued by how some adults think babies will just magically fit into these routines and do what the parents want if they ignore them. My mum built a 40 year career fixing the issues caused by neglectful parents, and teachers and carers have to practically regress children back to babies to correct attachment issues. I could not have ignored DD if I'd wanted to (I didn't). And frankly, a content child is far more important to me than clean skirting boards or washing curtains.

Oh please. So if you don't practice attachment parenting, if you let your child cry for a few minutes, if you put them into a routine, if you don't respond to their every need right there and then that moment, then it is 'neglectful' and your child will have attachment issues. Well Christ, 2nd/3rd/4th babies must be totally fucked then.

Obviously I am only working on assumption, but I imagine that the issues that your mum spent 40 years fixing ran slightly deeper than 'my mum put me in a Gina Ford routine and did controlled crying when I was a baby'

My kids are long grown up, but they were in their own rooms from the word go, were put to bed each evening and slept through for 12 hours from 12 weeks. They were in a Gina type routine (although she was not around at the time) as that worked for me. I was with them all day long as a SAHM and the evenings were MY time for rest, relaxation and sleep. They were very content children who flourished and were rarely ill

Attachment parenting is certainly not for me - and I fail to see how it works if you have more than one child....

Not what I said AldiQ7.

I think that those capable of ignoring the cries of a tiny baby only a few weeks or months old, or who have a desperate need to squeeze their child into a rigid routine from birth etc are more likely to do other things down the line that cause issues for the child. Eg refusing them food when they are hungry because it isn't "time"; scrubbing them in the bath every single night to get them clean despite painful eczema flare ups; sending them for a weekend at the grandparents at 4 months with strict instructions to feed only breast milk, but without sending a single drop of breastmilk; palming kids off on grandparents for 4 days and nights a week for several months so that adult social life can be maintained; smacking; threatening (all things I've witnessed amongst nieces and nephews that have come along after my daughter).

I know two major league APs. Everything they do is child dictated led. They would think nothing of being kept awake all night by a constantly breastfeeding preschooler - that kind of thing.

I think for some, AP (and similar parenting methods) can get so all-consuming it becomes an exercise in competitive martyrdom. "I suffer for the good of my child", basically. If anyone asks them for advice around sleep, the first thing they do is find an article/blog post that not only explains why this level of sleep deprivation is normal, but any moves to encourage self-settling etc. are actually harmful to the child.

Seriously. Every single time.

So, YANBU.

That's not attachment parenting, seaoflove.