To Wonder Why Tory Voters Support a £13bn cut in benefits (inc tax credits) when hardly any tory voters even receive these benefits?

[Amylovesgalaxyeggs]

Tory voters statistically earn more and live in constituencies that have higher property values.

Tory voters statistically would be less likely to rely on tax credits or other benefits that will be cut by the party.

Aibu to wonder why a group of voters would vote for a party that wants to cut something that they don't claim. Sounds like a of reverse Robin Hood to me.

Ideologically the Tory party believes that the country will be better off when everyone is working and contributing, they believe in the power of the individual to make their own lives better and the harder you work the more you should be rewarded. Everyone has equality of opportunity (i.e. free education for all) and what you do with that opportunity is up to you, there should be very little state support.

The Labour party believe that the state should provide a cushion to support those who cannot support themselves and that everyone should have equality of outcome with the state helping many more of those who cannot earn enough to support themselves. Often known as the Nanny State, the more the state interferes/supports your lives the more they have a say over what you do.

*Fwiw most conservative voters aren't voting conservative because they want those in need to have benefits cut. For most that's not even an issue. They are voting conservative because they desperately want the economy to be strong because that benefits everyone. Any muppet can stand up and say vote for me I'll magic up trillions of pounds and spend them on the NHS and education (and very few would argue about the benefits of spending in those areas) but the simple fact is we don't have the money. It's far more difficult to stand up and say "actually no, we won't keep spending, we'll keep trying to tighten the purse strings because unless we sort out this mess we are all in trouble."

Spending money we don't have causes serious problems, whether that's on an individual household level or a national level.*

Sums it up for me. In my 40 years of voting I have voted Labour / Conservative 50/50. I will be voting Conservative this time.

Doesn't make any sense BMW We are worse off now, the Tories have borrowed in five years than the whole of the last Labour Tenure.

We used to own a small business (pub) and the problem with constantly raising the minimum wage (the living wage) is that we, in common with many small employers, would have folded

TedandLola Then it isn't a feasible business. Why should you be able to exploit people by paying an unliveable wage and have the taxpayer pick up the rest of the bill?

No taxpayer picked up any bill. We sold the business after years of trying to make it work - not for ourselves but, like many pubs, it was the heart of the tiny, remote community. We paid well above the minimum wage for those who had permanent jobs and the minimum wage for seasonal (usually student) employees. But, a remote pub is not viable unless you do what the current owners have done. Yes, it is profitable but they no longer have permanent employees. Locals are now shut out because of the very high prices. And 3 permanent jobs (not ours, 3 permanent jobs) have been lost to the statistics. I cannot begin to explain how wrong you are about "exploiting people". How bloody hard it is running a business and feeling the desperate need to keep it going (in spite of two small children and working full time in addition to running the pub) in order to preserve jobs and keep things going for the community.

My point was, that not all business owners are bastards. Some of the so-called fat cats are actually very thin, very stressed cats trying their very best to keep jobs for their workers.

Yawn. How many more of these threads with left wingers taking the moral high ground are we going to see over the next month?
"I've never met a nice Tory" Such bullshit. You very probably have but they didn't tell you how they vote. We have secret ballots don't you know?

So benefits are effectively nothing and yet you still want them cut? Logical.

I didn't say benefits are effectively nothing, and I didn't say I wanted them cut. So nothing in that statement is true.

I said contributions-based JSA is nothing. As you are not paying attention I will spell it out: for my family (couple with one child in Tower Hamlets) contributions based JSA would be £1900 over one year, full benefits including housing benefit would be just under the benefits cap, about 25.5K, when I calculated it a couple of months ago.

(I don't personally care that there is zero chance of my circumstances changing enough so that I could claim 25.5K, I was merely pointing out that the complaint of someone who does care that they get nothing is not refuted by saying they can get contributions-based JSA. It is a common and dishonest debating trick on here to tell someone that because they get child benefit or are entitle to contributions-based JSA for six months, they are "on benefits", i.e. their 2-3K a year means they're in the same boat as someone getting up to 26K.)

I haven't said in this thread I want benefits cut. In general I have no strong opinion on the overall level of benefits, I usually argue for changes that remove incentives for people to behave badly. I am often quite happy for that to be done by increasing benefits, i.e. having universal benefits instead of means testing. (I did argue for a child-benefit cut in another thread, but I would also be happy to see them go the other way and make it universal again. i.e. my argument was for a rational system, not a cut or increase as such.)

How many more of these threads with left wingers taking the moral high ground are we going to see over the next month?
I could say the same with regard defending the indefensible.
Equally, if you're not interested in political threads, don't open them.

prepper im not in a courtroom Im on an internet forum.

And is it any wonder people get annoyed when you tell them "Well you should have paid in to an insurance scheme or pension" and then STILL have a go at us when we tell you thats precisely what we did.

That is gaslighting It IS abusive and much much worse than anyone high fiving!

Good point Helena..Pepper You can't be that good at arguing if you think your simple anecdote sums up the difference between Labour and the Tories.

I'm an economists ( and a HRT) and I vote Labour, I don't think Labour are anti business at all, actually I think the opposite. If the entire country does well then business does well, especially small business which is the lifeblood of the country. As the inequality of the last 5 years grows the Tories seek not to encourage growth of income via work but the growth of asset value via. They seek to for the status quo to remain and the rentier class to get richer at the expense of everyone else.

You want average ( and most of us are average) people to do better, vote Labour. Want income inequality to grow, and it may not effect you directly but it will your children, vote Tory.

While your at it bury your head in the sand repeating "I work hard, I deserve it."

I am alarmed at the number of people who don't care about the poor or disabled. Disabled people are having a much harder time because of Tory cuts.

Better cutting something that doesn't affect them than something that does

and bloomin hell I'm useless at typing on my phone! Must check before posting!

I didn't for one moment say that it summed up anything. I just thought it was interesting. I didn't tell DS which way I will be voting I just explained the basics of socialism v capitalism and that was what came out of the mouth of a nine year old.

And Helena I didn't say you were in courtroom I was just using a courtroom as an illustration. High fiving someone when you think you've scored a point in a debate is really childish (and I said nothing about insurance or anything like that, it was another poster).

Anyway, the bullying tone and turning things personal is what I said this thread would turn into so I've had enough of this one. I'll just move on to the next "tories are ogres" thread.

Now where are my poorly paid servants? I need someone to carry my jewels and ill gotten riches and lay out my red carpet as I leave….

Prepper ok you didnt say anything about insurance....fine I concede. But the fact that you see my high fiving as bullying and you cant/dont see the obvious gaslighting on this thread as bullying and abusive (which it is) says a lot about you.

When I first had dd labour were throwing money around like water! I got working tax credit I think it was. About £145 a month plus CB

I didn't need the money at all my Dh has a good wage and we have a low mortgage as I was lucky to buy in the low period of housing.
It was crazy! Mind you I didn't say no as we were apparently entitled.

Any way that went out of the window when Tory's got in but I couldn't vote labour again as they are just too wasteful. I want a party like the libs but one that arnt spineless idiots so that really only leaves Tory. Or no vote.

Ian u happy about the disabled cuts and I would like the disabled to be exempt from bedroom tax and some other cuts.

I've followed this thread somewhat… I'm quite disappointed by the Tory bashers… Saying all Tory voters care about no one but them selves is so unfair. As a household we bring in more than £1m a year, and because of that you think I don't care about anyone else… I give half of that away at least. I want a fair society, and I feel very fortunate, but having my husband working 14 hours a day for that privilege is hard...

I am amazed how people get berated on her for having an opinion that doesn't match theirs.

I personally think benifits are abused and for the person complaining they only get 25.5k in benefits .. You would be the reason I'd support cutting them..

I get up out of bed mon to Friday walk to work come rain or shine (can't afford to drive it or pay for taxi) put sometimes up to a 12 hour day then work a second job in the evenings for few extra quid to make ends meet and can only dream if getting25.5k for doing so.

When it's pays better to sit on your ass all day rather than drag yourself up and out like the rest of the world to pay for yourself and your family there is a problem

Ladysybil I am currently in the process of buying properties and refurbishing them to be let at an affordable rent for a local authority. It doors happen but it's an expensive way to do things.

amarone watching my husband cry with pain every day is hard. Helping a 44 year old man on and off the loo is hard. Losing our joint income when he became ill was hard. Losing my income when we finally found out he wouldn't get better was hard. And then they started eroding the services that helped, art therapy, befriending, care packages, respite care. That was hard. Then the Tories started changing the goal posts with regard to disability benefits, as well as removing other help, like the Independent Living Fund. It got harder. It's really fucking hard working the eighteen hour day that I do and I do it for sixty five quid a week, so I'm sure you'll excuse me for thinking that anyone who votes for the bastards that have removed my help and my hope is selfish.

Few people outside London get anywhere near the maximum amount of benefits. I have a progressive disability that will kill me. I get £100 a month in PIP. That does not pay for the extra costs of my disability. I worked full time all my life, until I physically could no longer. The Tories will make my life worse.

*I am neither a multi millionaire nor moron. I'm sick of getting up at 5.20am, waking my 5 and 3 year old up at 6am and marching them out of the house at 6.30am to spend 11.5 hours with a childminder whilst I work a 10 hour day and dh does the same (only leaving the house at 5am). I'm sick of half our income going to tax coffers to pay for state education we don't use, an NHS we use only for private referrals and to pay for tax credits/child benefit/housing benefit/jobseekers/the new childcare tax relief we won't qualify for either.

And then I hear of 18 year olds going to the CAB where my mum volunteers asking for a run down of what benefits they can get 'for life' because they are pregnant and therefore can't work but are entitled to a house, the means to furnish it, a new pram etc etc.

When dh lost his job a couple of year ago and I was on mat leave, arguably we were 'down on our luck'. What help did we get? Absolutely FA because we had been sensible enough to put some savings aside and built up a nest egg.*

Me too.

There's your answer Amy love. The decent, hardworking, saving people in this country have had enough of the scroungers, the bludgers and those that work the absolute minimum whilst claiming the absolute maximum.

Labour voters vot ein theri own self interests pretty much too. Most people on benefits vote Labour - oddly enough!!!

Why be surprised poor people vote UKIP? You didn't think teh educated middle classes did, surely? It is the poor that are most affected by mass immigration and high house prices.

Emma, if your mum volunteers at CAB, she should not be sharing confidential information with you.
You also surely know that no single parent gets benefits for life so they don't have to work. And unless you live somewhere that is undesirable and has an excess of council housing, a lone parent in those circumstances won't get a council house. Where I live, they will be recommended to look at privately rented bed sits, most of which are very basic.

Maria, it's hardly breaking confidence if her mother says "oh we get people asking..." Not "that Jane from no 42 came in and asked..."

Do you ever wonder how anyone gets any training for any job like this if they can't use anonymised case studies? The mind boggles at how you think doctors learn stuff...