To Wonder Why Tory Voters Support a £13bn cut in benefits (inc tax credits) when hardly any tory voters even receive these benefits?

[Amylovesgalaxyeggs]

Tory voters statistically earn more and live in constituencies that have higher property values.

Tory voters statistically would be less likely to rely on tax credits or other benefits that will be cut by the party.

Aibu to wonder why a group of voters would vote for a party that wants to cut something that they don't claim. Sounds like a of reverse Robin Hood to me.

Dawndonnagain She's getting there. Her husband and her Mum have basically carried her through it. They've finally moved into a Housing Association flat with no stairs and I think it's given her a tiny bit of independence back. They were in a town house before and moving about the house terrified her. She's just scared about how they'll cope. And feels guilty about that even though it's not her fault. I'll recommend that Facebook page though, thanks!

edwinbear Again though you are ignoring that the majority of people on disability and welfare benefits don't have all of those things. Most people on benefits do have to make those decisions like your Mum made.

There is no acceptance from so many people that those who are at it are the small minority. There would be an outcry if it was announced that all businesses were expected to pay more to cover those who don't pay tax properly. Yet it's ok to repeatedly attack people on benefits to punish the ones who could do something else.

Politics is 'othering'. Always has been and probably always will be.

For one sector of society the 'problem or enemy' is e.g single Mums and benefit claimants. And they should be treated as the problem, be addressed and dealt with/penalised in that sectors view.

For another sector it's privileged/high earning/tax dodgers that are the 'problem or enemy' and should be treated as such, addressed and dealt with/penalised.

They're both the same in the attitude of 'yes, there are problems and some people may be taking the piss here but look at THEM over there and what they're up to'.

Every single benefit bashing thread on MN (and I do not agree with BB at all!) always has someone popping up talking about tax evasion for example. As if one misuse of the system can be justified or excused by another.

And it's a similar situation in that it's always a sector of society different to 'our own' who are the fuckers that need sorting out. If it wasn't for those complete pricks 'over there' doing 'this' our society would be better and we'd all be having a much better time.

Divide and conquer isn't a one way street. Whether we think we're in the fortunate or unfortunate group, we're still being influenced to blame societies ills on another group of people and consider ourselves different to them and not part of that world.

And I don't have any answers at all by the way, it's an observation of politics and society as a whole. And is the reason I don't vote for any political party (I do attend and be counted though before anyone becomes upset! ).

"The issue with the current system is that it makes people to reliant on them. I have lost count of the number of people posting threads about how they can't/won't work any more hours as there tax credits would be reduced."

But those hours being offered to them need to be permanent and quite often they are NOT.

They are intermittent and inconsistent and the system cannot cope with that.

And all so employers can get out of paying a decent wage!

There we go edwin you're talking the Daily Fail's version of things again. Not everyone on benefits has the things you are talking of, some do but the state might not pay for it all. Also, much of the stuff you talk about can be bought at places like bright house on the never never. The reason you hear about people that do seem to have lots is because they are rare, the reason you don't hear about those who are on the bones of their arse is because they are not. The same reason you never hear the stat that most people on JSA have a new job in 3 months.

Data actually shows there are probably around 100,000 people in families where no one works or has worked in the last 10 years. That's 0.153 % of the population. Hardly a large group.

It is hard to compare the situation now to the past. Clothes and such cost a lot more then, but even then it was a choice from your parents to send you to private school. They had the ability to make that choice. Many children grow up with parents who have little or no choices

Being on benefits, especially if you are long term sick or disabled, does not mean you are not allowed to join in with society. If we exclude people , and especially those reliant on those who do need benefits society will be the worse for it.

Please, please believe me when I say, stop looking at what the poor benefit from and start looking about the benefits enjoyed by the rich/corporate elite.

Edwin.......Your H would have met the criteria for contribution based JSA.

And children need computers to do their homework on because a lot of homework has to be done this way.

And before you come out with the "they can go to the library argument most of them are/or have closed.

Nobody is the enemy, just the divide and rule is coming from the government and those in the right wing press (Btw look at the newspaper you read and what their owners agendas are, its interesting)

Its these people who keep hitting the poor, casting aspersions of fecklessness on them. I don't mind people doing well, I don't mind people getting rich. I mind exploitation, I mind people who fail to recognise that they benefit from society, I mind greed being placed before need.

The only reason most people are one disaster/redundancy/accident away from poverty is this mindset that the State will bail you out (after a fashion)

I have zero expectation of the State, so have put in place adequate protection in the form of life assurance, critical illness cover and an income protection plan in case the worst happens (critical illness cover pays out in the event of a child being born with a disability, or becoming ill before the age of 18).

People generally haven't done this because we have become trapped in the culture of dependency and have lost the mindset of self sufficiency and empowerment.

This really needs to change.

BatteryPoweredHen

Lucky you. I too have life assurance and critical illness cover, it is called the state. The reason why I rely on it is that like many others even in a well paid job I would not be able to afford it if it was not there. The reason why we have it is because so many could not and by working together it becomes much more affordable ( through economies of scale, national monopolies argument etc).

Lovely thing about the tories is they like state intervention when it suits them ( see the many subsidies paid to big business) but don't like it when it doesn't.

Greed is not good.

Battery Dh is 23 years my senior and paid into a private pension in the 70s 80s and 90s Do you think we can get them to pay him CAN WE FUCK!

Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

You know exactly what the state will offer you (the very bare minimum), if that is not enough, then you need to pay extra for better protection.

Helena, I'm sorry your DH made poor choices, but that is down to him. It isn't for the rest of us to shoulder that burden.

My friend had/has life insurance and critical illness cover. She thought that would be enough. Sadly she isn't dead or dying so they haven't helped.

She frequently mentions that her husband and son would be financially much better off if she had got a condition that had killed her.

MY DH was TOLD he had to pay into this pension scheme IF he wanted to keep his job. They were TOLD TOLD TOLD TOLD TOLD they had to. The only choice he had was the amount he paid Same as the rest of the workforce in that place of employment. Then the firm went bust and the company was taken over by an AMERICAN insurance company A VERY well known one. DH got his STATE pension last month. The company who is supposed to be paying his workplace pension are sending a package for him which has taken THREE WEEKS and we have still not recieved it And then they hardly answer their fucking phone This arm is based in the UK so its not as if the package is coming from the States either.

Battery i do apologise for the fact that my husband was TRYING to keep his job by doing this just as you Tories want people to but you blaming it on him just shows you up for the gaslighting goady twat that you are.

#workplacepensions weareallin !!!!!!!!!!

Edwin.......Your H would have met the criteria for contribution based JSA.

Yes, he would have got about £1900 in total, spread over 6 months, then nothing. Maybe he could have used it to buy lottery tickets, because winning the lottery is the only way that it would have made much difference.

longtime I'm sorry I read it a few times but I couldn't understand your comment to me.

I simply repeated what DS1's reaction had been. It was interesting to me given that he knew nothing about the issues.

Anyway, fed up with these threads. They just become bullying which is a shame because good political debate can be helpful and interesting.

Fwiw most conservative voters aren't voting conservative because they want those in need to have benefits cut. For most that's not even an issue. They are voting conservative because they desperately want the economy to be strong because that benefits everyone. Any muppet can stand up and say vote for me I'll magic up trillions of pounds and spend them on the NHS and education (and very few would argue about the benefits of spending in those areas) but the simple fact is we don't have the money. It's far more difficult to stand up and say "actually no, we won't keep spending, we'll keep trying to tighten the purse strings because unless we sort out this mess we are all in trouble."

Spending money we don't have causes serious problems, whether that's on an individual household level or a national level.

I truly don't get the NMW. So the poorest get 50p more an hour and everything else goes up to compensate.
Surely making it cheaper to live is the answer? Funny how the economy is doing better as soon as fuel goes down to an affordable amount. No shit...then you have money to do stuff.
Maybe some landlord controls to stop them buying up all the affordable property and renting it out at a fortune, reduce the amount of reliance on the state by making it easy to do self assessments, simplifing the systems so people don't get overpayments ( I have had many and my wages have always been exactly the same for years) and get quick assessments so you aren't in massive debit that's hard to get out off.
It's grim on benefits because they are often wrong and end up making you worse off. Making work pay ie not having to pay it all back to the state in taxes or benefits overpayments is the only way.

Prepper, sorry I wrote that in a hurry.

I'll address your current argument though

"actually no, we won't keep spending, we'll keep trying to tighten the purse strings because unless we sort out this mess we are all in trouble".

We are not all in trouble this is the problem, there are a huge amount of firms and people doing very well out of the state, spending on benefits has not really lowered and the deficit has not shrunk by very much. In fact the amount is has shrunk is mainly due to a growing economy, which has been down to Osbourne following Labour plans after having to disregard his own in 2011.

In 2008 before the banking crisis, the deficit stood at the same level as it had in 1997. Many people are conveniently forgetting that we were at war on two fronts for 5 years by this point. The banking crisis destroyed businesses, lending, consumer confidence and the Keynesian response employed by Labour to boost the economy and save the banks was successful but costly. It was not public sector spending that got us into this mess but private sector largesse. If 20 % of what was paid in bonuses and dividends between 2004 and 2008 was saved by the banking sector there would have been no crash and no bail out.

It has been state spending that has got us out of this mess, the cuts to benefits are a drop in the ocean for state spending, it is idealogical and focused on making you look for someone to blame, other than those really responsible.

You make the household spending and state spending analogy when it is not the same at all. When you borrow money as a household for the long term good you swallow the debt repayment, we do that as a nation, but you do not borrow from those within your own household. Most of our sovereign debt is owned by the BOE or British citizens, we are no where near the Greece issue.

It is slight of hand to distract you from the real issue,l 12 bn will not cut your taxes by much or for long, but it will hurt the poor, hard.

Theo Can you please show me where i said it would be a lot?

Theo Can you please show me where i said it would be a lot?

If it's effectively nothing, what was the point of mentioning it?

I thought you were disputing the claim that they got nothing, so I was pointing out that contributions-based JSA is as close to nothing as makes no difference.

So benefits are effectively nothing and yet you still want them cut? Logical.

As has been pointed out before, the huge majority of people on benefits are not work shy scroungers. They are the most vulnerable people in society or people who need a hand to get back on their feet.

Dog bites man is not a story, man bites dog is, if you catch my drift

Yy Lurker Theo fell into that one Sooooo easy

Battery People like you make me laugh. I had all of those things. I am reliant on the state. You pay into this shit and then watch as they take all of your money and give you absolutely nothing in return. Been there, done that and am still benefit scrounging scum. I work an 18 hour day, every single day. No holidays, no sick leave. So whilst you sit there smugly in your castle, just try to have a little empathy, not just with those like me who tried to do all the things you have suggested, but for those who didn't have choices. Those who couldn't have afforded the insurances you talk of, those who weren't in a position to save. A little thought and kindness goes a long way.

helena see that proves my earlier post. What was the point of that childishness? It's bullying behaviour, it undermines your arguments and your credibility. It makes people disengage from the conversation and walk away without you changing their mind (so you've not helped your cause)

I'm a lawyer, I argue for a living. You don't see QCs in court punching the air and giving out high fives (in fact completely the opposite).

I've been on benefits for 2 weeks and believe me I'm incentivised to get out to work. I genuinely cannot believe anyone could "live" on them, exist maybe but not live. I have no choices available to me, no options and the control the DWP now has over my life is devastating.
I will be back at work ASAP, even if I was worse off just to remove that power. Can't wait to tell them where they can shove their tax credits