to think that senior workers at NHS will lie about serious errors if they think they will get sued

[calmseeker]

In my job if I do something serious which endangers another person (albeit unintentional) I lose my job. I doubt colleagues would lie to protect me or themselves. in the NHS this is not often the case. Speaking from personal experience when something goes seriously wrong a web or lies is drawn. Ranks close and you are lied to. The culture has to change because not only is this immoral, it makes people on the receiving end of shoddy treatment all the more determined to see justice done. It would be better if a culture existed whereby a consultant, doctor etc... could say 'yes I made a terrible mistake and I am truly sorry'

Lies are already commonplace, they do close ranks and they will turn on outsiders to apportion blame.
Personal experience resulting in the death of someone very close to me.
Changes were put in place to prevent it happening again, so there was an issue in the first place. Hell would have to freeze over before any of the medical professionals involved would admit that to me though.
I'm terrified of ever being admitted to hospital.

What we really should be concerned about is unregulated and unregistered healthcare managers putting dangerous policies (including those related to manning levels) into place, watching the whole thing go tits up and people die, collecting their golden handshake and moving on up the quango ladder.

Healthcare professionals in Britain are very tightly regulated. One of the biggest reasons there aren't more whistleblowers and more professionals owning up to making mistakes (or near misses) is the fact that these healthcare managers will only be happy where blame can be apportioned. Not, "OK, let's compensate the individual if they were harmed and find a way to ensure this doesn't happen again".

The culture is created by those who have nothing to lose. It is the same where I work and today I have downed tools and said I am no longer prepared to compromise my standards. Fuck knows what will happen now...
beyond caring

When I was in hospital a few years ago, two nurses were talking behind the curtain next to my bed agreeing a story to cover up an error one of them had made. They were making up facts, times all sorts of stuff. Somebody should tell them that curtains are not soundproof.

I think, prior to this incident I must have been very naive. I had heads of department and senior consultants telling me things which I am 100% sure where untrue. Even more scary when it's someone's life that is on the line as a result.

I agree.
Senior people will try and shift the blame onto more junior people.
I have seen senior professionals stand up and lie at an inquest.

I have sat in front of senior consultants and had them look me in the eye and lie. I was completely shocked and still am,

I used to work in a non-medical capacity in the NHS, and I would regularly encounter consultants who had knowingly been doing things that were illegal. (Sometimes it was an entire unit, in which case I had to deal with the CEO). I was only junior but my boss was cowardly, and basically asked me to tell them that they couldn't do these things any more, and to liaise with all the other appropriate organisations to get a line of action and communciation 'straight'. I ended up in the office for 10 hours a day, while my bosses, who were literally paid four times what I was, did a 10-5 day of meetings, and then delegated all the actual work.

Almost all of those questioned threw a tantrum, told me that I didn't know what I was talking about and had no right to tell them what to do. They would write public information letters trying to cast the blame for investigations onto other bodies. CEOs were even worse. There is a real problem that goes very deep in the culture, and it goes beyond 'cover ups' - we have a lot of very arrogant senior medical professionals and managers who quite simply don't listen or answer to anyone. (And they honestly don't think they could possibly be wrong - I remember one once telling me 'Oh Holly, you have to understand that there are a load of people who just interfere with us on the grounds of ethics. We just don't tell them anything or they stop us doing it. They're just keeping themselves in a job'). Across the country, everyone does a load of stuff differently, and in many areas there isn't a proper way of collecting information so that you can compare across services.

It's a bloody mess is what it is.

I truly believe that the only way to fix it is to recruit a much broader spectrum of people in class terms in medical education, and to ensure that the people doing the job are there for the right reasons (i.e. they are filled with a desire to serve the public, and not to make money). We also need to stop treating the NHS as a load of loosely joined local services, and start looking at more national standardization.

I work in the NHS, on a ward. People are scared to write incident forms if errors occur as they get called into the office by senior staff and berated for making the ward look bad.

Mrsmorton I wish everyone was as brave as you!! Unfortunately they're not and as PPs have said from the top to the bottom there are lies told and cover-ups everyday.

YANBU.

That said, I do think there needs to be a concession that accidents do happen.

I watched a fucking cow of a ward manager shout at MIL for crying over the state her staff had reduced FIL to. He had C Diff, was covered in unexplained bruises, had not been fed or given fluid for 12 hours and they were about give him him a drug he was allergic to.

All swept under the carpet.

Well said MrsMorton

Having had this experience which I am unable to elaborate on because of legal reasons, I absolutely insist on anything to do with important medical procedures and decisions in writing and would advice others to do so. I find it absolutely so demoralising and I can't quite explain just how one feels when confronted with a wall of untruths and cover up.
I have over the years had a number of friends who work in the medical profession in all sorts of positions (all seemingly decent people).

yes, it happens. My son was injured during birth and left with a lifelong disability as a result of a doctor's incompetence and notes were written retrospectively to try to cover it up, statements contradicted each other, they lied their heads off all the way to finally settling out of court.

I am sorry to hear about your son. I can't imagine writing notes retrospectively in my profession (as a cover up).

Something went very horribly wrong when I had my DS and I nearly died due to a very negligent Dr (now struck off). The hospital were very honest from the outset, apologised and told me that there was going to be a big investigation into it that he was being reported to the GMC.

I couldn't fault them however, I work in healthcare and I'm pretty sure this goes on but I haven't witnessed it any serious incidents myself. I work in an area where we are actively encouraged to fill out incidents forms (date) whether its a near miss, lack of staff, lack of equipment etc. I would say at least 3 are filled in per shift so not all areas cover things up.

It is a terrible thing to have to go through and I am sorry you are going through it. Its taken me over 5 years to start feeling anywhere near normal and I still suffer from PTSD.

Good luck and keep fighting.

It is refreshing to hear that at least in some hospitals honest is observed. The hospital and staff I have had to deal with have a good reputation. I cannot begin to tell you what it feels like to have someone completely deny what you know has happened. It's a bit like you telling someone 'I had breakfast this morning' (when you know you did) and having a whole team of people in powerful positions saying 'No you didn't'.

I don't recognise this health service that most of you are describing. My workplace has a culture of openness and in my experience people who have made mistakes have actually been very quick to admit and document and they have been supported by management and not "blamed". The families etc have been told openly and at the earliest time possible.

I don't recognise it either. Where I work duty of candour is taken very seriously. Senior staff will go and tell patients if a mistake has been made.....even if the patients had no idea at this point and to be honest never would have.

In more serious cases where serious harm has been caused again senior managers have apologised and said that it should never have happened, even in cases where it's obvious that such an admittance is going to run into a massive payout......and I'm talking £millions.

Incident forms are frequently filled out. And serious incident is investigated. Statements are taken and an investigation inc formal interviews of staff are carried out. I'm sure individuals may attempt to lie to save their own skin but to be honest it's normally fairly obvious from documentation, or lack of documentation.

Another one who doesn't recognise the NHS you're describing - and I appreciate the irony of a load of NHS workers coming on and telling you that what you say is happening, isn't happening.
I have worked in a number of trusts and all of them have clear processes for reporting untoward incidents, and lots of staff training on how important it is to report - it's how we learn and improve things for the future.
I have reported a serious untoward incident, and at no stage was I coerced into covering things up or made to feel uncomfortable about having done so. Both I and the people involved were surprised by the openness of the team to admit what had happened, and the frankness of the discussion that was had by all those involved.

As I said, my experience was, and has been harrowing. I have had meetings with senior medical staff (prior to taking legal action) at which what I knew to be true was denied repeatedly. It was as detailed up thread like me saying ' I had breakfast today' and person after person saying 'No you didn't'. In my case I am lucky enough to have good friends in the legal profession, who have pointed me in the right direction. But from my experience the dishonesty, lies and cover ups are mind boggling.

Saying that I do know someone who ended up ventilated in ICU after a routine op went badly wrong. And even worse it wasn't recognised it had gone wrong, she nearly bled to death internally on the ward before they realised.

She has l&g term health problems and has taken legal advice.

The hospital have lost large chunks of her notes and are denying she was ever in ICU. Which is rather odd as her family and friends can distinctly remember visiting her in ICU, being told to prepare for the worst, etc. some members of hospital staff who my friend knows remember seeing her in ICU. I remember getting a phone call on the ward where I work to say she was in ICU.

Well I hope the hospital staff are going to tell it as it was if legal action involves statements from them.

I should think so. I've certainly told her I will.

I wish I couldn't recognise the NHS you're describing. But I do.

And the examples of cover ups and endless buck passing that I can think of extend way past senior workers, as I've seen (as a patient, as a relative, and also as a HCA and nurse) Drs, nurses, HCA's and other ward staff who have lied in order to cover up abuse and both minor and major errors. It makes me despair. Human error is inevitable in health care- as we're all human. But the way that many individuals and departments deal with errors is often very alarming.