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AIBU?

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Original poster

to think that senior workers at NHS will lie about serious errors if they think they will get sued

92 replies

calmseeker · 31/03/2015 14:32

In my job if I do something serious which endangers another person (albeit unintentional) I lose my job. I doubt colleagues would lie to protect me or themselves. in the NHS this is not often the case. Speaking from personal experience when something goes seriously wrong a web or lies is drawn. Ranks close and you are lied to. The culture has to change because not only is this immoral, it makes people on the receiving end of shoddy treatment all the more determined to see justice done. It would be better if a culture existed whereby a consultant, doctor etc... could say 'yes I made a terrible mistake and I am truly sorry'

OP posts:
thenightsky · 31/03/2015 22:43

Mumyum1 That is shocking.

Mumyum1 · 01/04/2015 00:30

I know it's shocking. I reported to CQC but the hospital - private by the way - have got away with it by claiming to be looking into purchasing a new software package. The pp are correct - corruption is rife in all sectors but in the health sector it has a visible direct effect on life and death and quality of life.

Mumyum1 · 01/04/2015 00:32

And as people we are obligate consumers of healthcare industry. This can only be overcome with each and every one of us being vigilant, outspoken and savvy enough to be taking our own notes/pictures etc wherever ans whenever possible.

Greenrememberedhills · 01/04/2015 01:05

What is missing is sufficient funds, firm but fair management and highly supportive management.

Lying is unacceptable. And lying which is encouraged by management or culture is especially so.

Part of the issue is definitely finance related crisis but another part is the refusal of some staff to accept that the patient is the centre of the service and not them.

I also think that the NHS is too hierarchical, and I'm not only talking about management!

Mumyum1 · 01/04/2015 01:20

The NHS needs to be a free health service run as a private business. It's too top heavy.

Becles · 01/04/2015 06:46

Gosh. This is a very dispiriting and at times ill informed thread.

@Mumyum1

The NHS needs to be a free health service run as a private business. It's too top heavy.

Considering that every analysis of the NHS confirms that it has one of the lowest management ratios of any health system in the world, it would be great to learn more about the basis for your conclusion. This stat is even more pronounced when you compare with private health systems in the UK and abroad.

For those saying that records are written retrospectively or altered without a trace, the majority of notes are written retrospectively as it is normally not practical for a member of staff (dr or health visitor) to stop in the middle of a clinic to write up notes. Every electronic record had a log of who entered, when and what they did.

looknow · 01/04/2015 06:49

The NHS has a simple policy.

The biggest shits always float to the top.

NorahDentressangle · 01/04/2015 06:56

It would be better if a culture existed whereby a consultant, doctor etc... could say 'yes I made a terrible mistake and I am truly sorry

This might work if the details of the staff could be kept secret.

This might work if some of the public were not determined to get financial compensation or revenge.

The public imo sometimes rant for revenge and blame due to the guilt they feel themselves eg over elderly rellies, they put them in a home then demand perfect care.

ChaiseLounger · 01/04/2015 07:06

Shocked at Norah's post.
If a wrong has been done most people just want justice, an admission, and an apology.

God I hope it never happens to you.

ginmakesitallok · 01/04/2015 07:10

I don't think that the NHS is any worse than any other organisation. Mistakes happen. People don't accept that mistakes happen ( because of the high impact those mistakes sometimes have), so sometimes people cover up.

From all the stories above - did any of you go to the ombudsman

ginmakesitallok · 01/04/2015 07:12

Posted too quickly

Did any of you go to the ombudsman rather than your lawyer? IMO the ombudsman is pretty good at getting to the truth.

Name one other area where everything that you do, say or advise has to be recorded in order to protect your back?

NorahDentressangle · 01/04/2015 07:18

If a wrong has been done most people just want justice, an admission, and an apology

Yes, perhaps I was a bit extreme above but have worked in nhs and the constant complaining by patients about stuff beyond the control of the staff is wearing.

I'm not sure if an apology is always enough. Some people would want the member of staff sacked I am sure.
Wouldn't it depend on what the issue was an why and the temptation to sue after an admission of error would be very strong (possibly by a claims solicitor).

ChaiseLounger · 01/04/2015 07:28

Yes, if it's Gross Misconduct then I would want disciplinary and being sacked.
Unrepentant adds to the raw wound.

ChaiseLounger · 01/04/2015 07:30

Complaining is hard. Have to go through phase 1,2, and 3 before you even get up the Omnudsman.
Funnily enough most people give up.

Original poster
calmseeker · 01/04/2015 07:34

I am not particularly well off. Financial recompense is not a priority for me. If I had the choice of justice being done i.e NHS personnel in my situation admitting fault and offering apology I'd take that any day over a pay off. Believe me when you have been saddled with a terrifying disease which could have been prevented or lost a love one or endless other things if you read above money is the last thing on your mind. Staying alive, coming to terms with a disability or grieving over a loved one is way way more important than money.

OP posts:
Original poster
calmseeker · 01/04/2015 07:38

And to add to the above it is insulting to people who have had their lives damaged and who have been through needlessly painful and frightening scenarios to suggest we just want money!

OP posts:
Original poster
calmseeker · 01/04/2015 07:41

Yes I did go to the Ombudsman not very effective I am afraid. Investigating my situation was way too expensive for them. I found an excellent law firm who took on my case no win no fees before the legal aid laws changed.

OP posts:
NorahDentressangle · 01/04/2015 08:15

No, I don't think everyone just wants money.

But I think that is part of the reason you don't get admission.

I'm sure a sincere apology would be enough for most people to ease the sorrow.

Original poster
calmseeker · 01/04/2015 08:22

That's just it you don't get an apology. You get complete denial. As I said at the onset I would lose my job if I did what was done to me .... no question. I work in a well thought of profession. Different rules apply in the NHS and it is mind boggling and shocking and that is what needs to be addressed.

OP posts:
NorahDentressangle · 01/04/2015 08:38

I absolutely agree it is terrible that there is never an apology, I was just trying to be realistic that the risk of the nhs being sued probably makes it very difficult to get someone to apologise as that is seen as admission of error.

It is another problem with our 'wonderful' NHS which no Gov ever has the guts to deal with. It infuriates me. Most staff are doing their best, God knows how they also live with the guilt of errors and no opportunity to make good to those who suffered as a result of them.

You are very brave to have taken this on calmseeker , it is the last thing anyone needs after traumatic health issues.

Becles · 01/04/2015 08:49

Those saying that the complaints procedure I'm England is complicated need to do a basic Google. Complain to the organisation you are unhappy about while supported by free government funded advocacy. If still unhappy after the response, go to the ombudsman, again with free complaints advocacy.

SmillasSenseOfSnow · 01/04/2015 09:02

ChaiseLounger:

my closest friends mum died on the Liverpool pathway. but notes were written retrospectively and they claimed she wasn't on it. they went to court but got nowhere, despite having reasonable evidence.

I'm sorry, and this is going to sound blunt, but surely it would be more surprising if someone didn't die on the LCP? Where is the supposed malpractice here?

Original poster
calmseeker · 01/04/2015 10:13

The thing is the negligence I think I could deal with that. I f someone say yes they made a mistake. What is way way more difficult is not just one person not saying sorry or acknowledging a serious lack of incompetence. It's person after person who knowingly claims ignorance or fails to acknowledge some degree of knowledge or responsibility. It is a catch 22 because , and I can only speak for myself, had I beem treating with respect and amutual desire to get to the truth I probably wouldn't consider legal actiom.

OP posts:
Poppet1974 · 01/04/2015 10:42

I couldn't agree more with the Op, the outright lies that were told during the treatment and after the passing of someone so dear to me was staggering. If I'm honest, it has changed completed my view of people, I'll never be as naive again and I'll never take the word of a consultant as gospel truth.
They do lie, they close ranks and back each other completely. If you don't believe that, you're as naive as I WAS!

BodleianLibrarianook · 01/04/2015 10:54

Exactly what Calmseeker said.
We were incredibly trusting, were fobbed off despite raising concerns repeatedly etc.
The thing that hurt the most though was the attitude that I was wasting their time for wanting a full inquest on the death of my perfectly healthy DP.
I did go to a solicitor, only because I was ignored, fobbed off, and treated like an idiot. Like most people that go down the legal route I was angry.
If someone had sat me down, said sorry and explained why things had been missed I would have not even picked up the phone. I didn't continue with the solicitor past a few letters because I didn't have the energy to deal with it. I didn't want revenge or cash. I wanted just one person to look me in the eye and say sorry.

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