to think that senior workers at NHS will lie about serious errors if they think they will get sued

[calmseeker]

In my job if I do something serious which endangers another person (albeit unintentional) I lose my job. I doubt colleagues would lie to protect me or themselves. in the NHS this is not often the case. Speaking from personal experience when something goes seriously wrong a web or lies is drawn. Ranks close and you are lied to. The culture has to change because not only is this immoral, it makes people on the receiving end of shoddy treatment all the more determined to see justice done. It would be better if a culture existed whereby a consultant, doctor etc... could say 'yes I made a terrible mistake and I am truly sorry'

I've name changed for this as I work in the NHS, as well as private healthcare companies.
Like PPs, I've found incident reporting, etc to be quite patchy - some areas are really good and some are ridiculously bad and its not confined to the NHS. The most shocking incident I know about, where a nurse decided to allow a patient to suffer rather than own up, happened in the private sector.
I've also made a complaint about my own care and I strongly suspect at least 2 entries in my notes contained fabrications.
However, in some of the places I've worked in the management will come and speak to staff if they haven't filed an incident form or been named as a witness in a certain period of time. The attitude in the best units I've been has been that everyone is human, that mistakes happen but we all have a duty to report so it can improve.

I have seen someone try to cover up an error with a web of lies. I documented the truth as did a colleague who witnessed it too. We reported it and It was dealt with officially. Not all staff will stand by the liar. My patients were my priority.

I am currently in hospital myself and I am worried about being lied to. Something must have gone wrong in my operation, but I can prove nothing. Now I don't know what to do or who to trust.

The NHS has to rid itself of the blame culture as it is still widespread IMO. People will do underhand things when they fear their jobs or reputations. The extent of the blame culture will not always be at the same at every hospital but instances like the scandal at Stafford serve to remind that out of touch consultants who believe themselves omnipotent can do real danger and create unsatisfactory working practices. Lately the Barts NHS trust has also been condemned in the press for having this culture.

I used to be a HCP in the NHS and i've worked in departments where management have been in fear of the senior consultant to the extent that the department ends up being stifled by the consultant's ego. The NHS needs more transparency and a clearer demarcation between medical consultants' and managements' role in running a department. I think there is still a lot of overlap between the two and if you throw big egos into the mix it can be a recipe for disaster.

I think people lie not necessarily from fear of being sued, after all the Trust pays as your employer but ultimately from fear of being hung out to dry for instutionalised mistakes of the department which once come to light, a convenient scapegoat must be found. This isn't why I left the NHS and i'm still practising as a HCP but just some of my observations from my time in the NHS.

The culture of patient-blaming/patient-hating seems to be becoming mainstream among medical staff. This idea that patients only complain because they want money. A local GP said to me that patients might try to make GP appointments because they want to see the new building. FGS. Now there's a reason for receptionists to be difficult with patients about making appointments. Clearly none of the patients are really ill, they're just making it up.

Smillas. Sorry.

So my post disappeared!!

Smillas, my understanding was that the elderly mother went in for something minor, like a cyst. before long she had pneumonia and then died.

it later transpired that she hadn't had anything to eat or drink for over 10 days.
hospital presented papers saying that the two daughters had signed the Liverpool pathway, insisted that the two daughters had consented , that they had been kept informed.

Sisters claimed that they had never been told. The signatures were proven to be forgeries.

That is what I was told.

Hmmm.

To get back to my original comment (no disrespect to the contributions of others, some of which, sadly, do not surprise me) my situation is that going first to the Ombudsman and then taking legal action has been a harrowing and hugely stressful situation. It is still unresolved and the process began several years ago. My determination and resolve have been buoyed and fuelled mostly by the inability or anyone (at the hospital) to acknowledge my blight or to accept any responsibility but also because I had senior medical staff and a surgeon sit in front of me and deny information which I knew to be true. As I said up thread if anyone at any stage had admitted mistakes and acknowledge my blight I most probably would not have pursued legal action. To reiterate if I had the choice of a pay out (which incidentally if I win will be relatively minimal due to legal costs) and justice, I would take justice without question.

The hospitals local to me:

one, is in special measures

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/death-rates-tameside-hospital-risen-8603197

the other two:

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/oldham-manchester-hospital-maternity-deaths-8976400

the problems there are not just within the maternity departments

hardly bodes confidence.

The culture change towards suing public bodies has definitely not helped, as there is an understanding that admitting liability is expensive. I remember when that changed, in the 90s.

Most people don't want money, they want an explanation, so that change should never have been implemented.

That said, I think there is some consultant arrogance. I wrote asking for information about a large hernia which happened during my last caesarean, and wrote the most careful letter, making it clear that I was interested only for my own health and was not litigious. I got a response that i had had three live children by caesarean at that hospital, and should be grateful. I kid you not. I threw the letter away in anger and still regret I didn't call a meeting on the back of it, with his superiors.

25 years ago I started a case for medical negligence against a hospital after a consultant a few years after my initial treatment (having developed lifelong problems from it) recommended that I did. What followed was 7 years of character assassination - I was labelled a "difficult patient"; where even my own 'medical experts' found it excruciatingly difficult to blame 'one of their own' - although ironically the hospital's own 'independent expert witness' did in the end and told it like it was. Legal aid constantly shifted the goal posts. I was taken all the way to the High Court on a legal technicality and that was 'My Day' - the Judge found Float to be "an honest and straightforward person and I have no reason to disbelieve a single word she says" and found in my favour on every legal point.

The hospital settled for a small amount that I was happy with - but I never got the apology or truth that I had set out to get in the first place.

At the time I said thank goodness I don't have a family and just myself to think about because there is no way I could have done this if I had. Such a shame, that although some improvements to admitting mistakes have been made, this culture of cover-up and patient-blaming is still rampant.

I've recently found out after birth 'debriefing' from both my previous births and my loss that what we were told at the time vs what is recorded in official notes are very different. For example, I was told back in dec 2008 my waters had not broken and I had 'wet myself, go home, baby will come when ready', records state pprom and advised stay in hospital, induction booked 22/12. I was told in front of my mother and aunt on the day I was induced for foetal distress due to 'undiagnosed pprom' on 22nd. March 22nd 2012 I was sent away from my local maternity unit at 11.30 pm for 'nil progression therefore not in labour' two different midwives has examined me, both stating to myself and dh I was at 5cms and needed to be on ward but consultant chose to discharge as I wasn't having 'effective' contractions I was not in 'active' labour. Official notes say 2-3cm. I was called back in the next morning at 9am for induction due to 'foetal distress and raised bp' it's shattered my trust in maternity care, and has really upset our families.

I strongly recommend reading Henry Marsh's "Do No Harm: Stories of Life, Death and Brain Surgery" - here. It's a good read in itself, but his approach to the issue of medical errors is interesting, particularly as he works in a field where the slightest mistake can be absolutely disastrous. He tells in particular of being sued in a case where he wasn't the surgeon concerned but agreed with hindsight that he should never have delegated the operation to someone else: when the barrister advised him that they shouldn't defend, he accepted the recommendation unhesitatingly and agreed with it. It's really rather refreshing.

I need to be careful about what I say but we are currently 'in talks' with our local trust due to my nans death hastened by her breaking her leg. She was very elderly but they x rayed the wrong leg even though she said which one was broken and this was documented.
I have to say they have very open and apologetic. The only thing I disliked was we only really wanted a 'sorry' and they phoned repeatedly asking what we wanted in way of compensation. In the meeting it really made me cry- how can you put a price on life?

Sorry and as a result they sent her home with a badly broken leg which meant she couldn't move, she contracted pneumonia and passed away :( not the passing I wanted for a lady who lived through the second world war.

I do not know what will happen with my claim against the trust who 'cared' for me and then proceeded to defend and lie about the indefensible. The only way I have been able to come to terms with the deceit and untruths is that these people have to live with themselves and their lies. When you are young and busy and embroiled in a high profile career perhaps it is easier to do this but eventually I think most people have to come to terms with their mistakes. Not everybody, I hope has made mistakes that have impacted hugely on a person's life and health, but having done so it must be horrendous to live with that. I do not have to live with this and have maintained integrity and honesty throughout the whole process.

Calm, I unfortunately disagree. I think the difference is that you and are are good people, in our hearts.
Sensitive. So that kind of thing would bother us.
But to some, it just seem to bother then. More than just rhino skin.

I don't think they ever do feel bad about it.

A woman , after 5 years of systematically bullying someone, said she thought she had "nothing to apologise for".

I don't often get shocked, but she literally made my mouth drop open.