to get narked at people's managers thinking 45 hours a week is outrageously long hours

[eggyface]

(sorry long, wanna avoid drip feed)

I work in white collar officey work. Classic making presentations, analysing data, sort of stuff. I remember when I was starting out in my industry, working 9.30 until 6.30 with hardly any lunch break was fairly usual. I wouldn't think that was a hard week for someone at the start of their career, learning the ropes. (A hard week might be be two or three nights until 10 or 11, or putting in 5 hours on Saturday).

We work for clients, so the ethos is that we need to service all the projects that come in, but on the other hand we are a big rather stuffy company which doesn't have much of a 'hungry' mentality for work. In our office a manager polices the diary of their team and if someone wants to nab a junior, their manager will often say they can't work on your thing because they're already working enough hours (i.e. 40).

When you're senior and working a longer week than that yourself, this is very annoying!

I know that it's important to protect people's rights and to create a culture where people don't work long hours for the sake of it. And yes, if I'm working long hours that's my problem and I need to organise my diary. But there's got to be some flex, hasn't there? I'd expect all the juniors to be keen to take on a new project even if it made them prioritise work over home life for a bit. I did that and I enjoyed the responsibility and opportunity to shine. AIBU to think that 45 hours is totally reasonable level of overtime to expect in a ft job (NB not paid, can take time off in lieu but in practice this might not happen as you'd be busy the next week)??

Do you realise what you're saying?
You think that someone working 40 hours a week should put in unpaid overtime to help you out with the fact that you can't manage your time or resources adequately?

If someone WANTS to help you out, you should be grateful for that and not hold the fact that someone has a life outside work against them.

People don't have to work for free, and nor should they have to - you're doing it because you get paid more for the responsibility and time and experience you generate for the company.

YABVU

I think this is the kind of question people reply to very much from their own working perspective.

Some people will be outraged people are having to do over contracted hours without paid overtime.

Some will think that 45hours when starting out is a cushy job.

When I worked FT in an office (techy) environment, I standardly did 42 hrs per week, 5 hours above contracted. But to a large extent it was my choice, not forced on me by people giving me too much work per week to fit in. Many people just did the hours.

Is the 'culture' you describe made clear to people when the accept the job?
Is the pay both as a junior and when more senior worth doing the extra hours for?
Why is the manager doing this? Presumably protecting the juniors, but this has probably come about for a reason.

Sorry, totally on the fence.

It depends on the amount of overtime of this time the "junior" was expected to take on on a regular basis. IMO a lot of companies in markets where entry level jobs are very competative, seem to think they can treat their junior staff like this & they should put up with it no argument. They are seen as "lucky to have the job" & to expect to have to work all the hours god sends to keep it.

If there is a genuine need for this overtime then problem, but as you say, work should be prioritised correctly & big projects planned out. Just because someone is junior, doesn't mean they aren't entitled to a good work/life balance like the rest of us. In my experience it breeds resentment amongst usually quite low paid junior staff. I used to work in recruitment (agency side) and although our contract stated hours of work 8:45 to 5:30 we were "expected" to be there at 8:15 every morning and leave well after 6:30 every night. In some cases you needed to do these hours a couple of nights a week to catch up with candidates who couldn't talk in office hours, but often, people were fabricating reasons to be the last to leave. It's part of the reason I stopped working in that industry.

I think this is a UK cultural thing as well, in other European countries most people wouldn't put up with working as late as this on a regular basis.

The bottom line of what you're saying is that you want people to work unpaid to further their career.

Yes, most people do this but that doesn't make it ok.

The least happy scores in Europe, the longest working hours, the most reported mental distress and mental health issues, the least stable family lives, the largest gap between rich and poor, the least security of accommodation, the only country with workfare, the lowest business taxes, zero hours contracts...

Do you really want to be part of contributing to the above ?

Usually people having to work very long hours is a sign of poor management.

Working hours in the UK are longer than elsewhere in Europe, yet productivity (and more importantly, growth in productivity) are poor.

However, I don't think it is, in principle, unreaonable to ask ambitious junior staff if they would like to get involved with a project that will involve long hours - as long as they reap the rewards at some point, and have the right to say no.

Exactly, Laurie, exactly.

I work in white collar officey work. Classic making presentations, analysing data, sort of stuff.

Sounds thrilling. I can see why you're confused about people not wanting to do that for 45 hours a week, and not even get paid for some of it. Those idiots probably want to spend time with their family or something equally boring.

We expect people to work at least equal or more to what we have done. I am in IT Industry and before I had my baby I used to work 45hours+ with "keeping an eye" on the system, emails over the weekend. All unpaid overtime. To the extent that at 8.5m pregnant I used to get support calls from our offices in far east at 1:00 in the morning and then at 7 from Australia before they end of the day for them.. and yes I did it all.. Because I had a sense of responsibility.. But I think it wont be fair on my part to expect the same from my juniors.. that does not happen... And it will not be accepted by them... You rare reaping the fruits of your hard work... If they want to help they will do so.. You cant expect them to necessarily do it..

YABU.

People shouldn't be routinely expected to work over their contracted hours to avoid being thought of as a slacker. Employers have far too much power when long hours become the norm and this type of culture is discriminitory against anyone who has responsibilities outside work or who simply wants a life outside work.

Work to live, not live to work, that's my motto.

The solicitors thread earlier this week illustrated how bad some industries are - someone wanted to retrain as a solicitor and all the solicitors came on and said 'you don't want to do that' the hours are terrible and you will have no life.

Important to note the junior staff you want to work longer hours to help you out will be earning considerably less than you. It's pretty exploitative to expect someone on a junior's salary to work as many hours as someone higher up the tree.

Sounds thrilling. I can see why you're confused about people not wanting to do that for 45 hours a week, and not even get paid for some of it. Those idiots probably want to spend time with their family or something equally boring.

You put it much better than I could.

It is the norm in many professions to work hours as required (think law!) and if those joining the profession don't realise this from the outset then they are unlikely to progress up through the ranks. It always amuses me when a friend says my husband must be getting a lot of overtime this month!

I think companies need to stop expecting people to work more hours than they are paid for. If there is too much work, they need to hire more staff. It seems people are being taken advantage of more and more and because it's "culture" it's ok.

Better work life balance leads to people being more productive at work. 40 hours a week at work is plenty IMO. More time at home means happier and more stable families. You could even argue that more leisure time is better for the economy.

I work in the public sector and do ridiculous amounts of overtime. I don't volunteer for it, I'm just not allowed to go home at the end of my shift. 18 hour days are not uncommon. I consider myself lucky that I get paid for it, but frankly I'd rather be at home with my family. The amount of overtime I am made to do makes me resent my work. And it's affected my health greatly.

It's ridiculous that people are made to prioritise work over family, when family and health should come first. Work should only come first for the 40 hours a week or so you are paid to be there. This culture of those who put in the longest hours unpaid getting ahead needs to stop. It's not good for anyone.

Thankfully your manager seems to have a kinder view than you. From what you have wrote, the junior staff seem to be working the full hours required by their managers and management don't have an issue with this. I can't actually see why you care. Sort your own work/life balance and diary out and stop concerning yourself with others. Home life is very important, and this comes from someone who regularly worked a 50hr week with 'time in lieu' which was never given. Maybe if you gave more time to your work than pondering about others, you may be more efficient with your own time.

YABU.

I agree with Monkey. I've never understood why this long working hours culture is celebrated so much in this country.
It's an admission of failure: either you are not competent at your job or are working inefficiently, or your managers are poor at managing their teams and the work coming in.

Yabvvvu.

I did 8-6 hours when I was in the city just as normal working hours. I now do 8 hours 3 times a week and I probably get as much work done with fewer mistakes.

I hate your attitude.

I mean 8am -6pm as normal working city hours. Many times was there till 9-10 at night.

People working excessive overtime is either a sign of poor management or a sign that someone is struggling in their job. When people are regularly working 5+ hours a day over their contracted hours, they're either crap at their job or the organisation is understaffed or under-resourced.

Is this really what you asked?

"I'm incompetent and can't do my job in my normal hours, I try and outsource my job to juniors but their manager /they're not interested in carrying me with unpaid overtime, AIBU"

Because it sounded like it? There certainly are jobs where you work to what needs doing, and people not as good at that job or keen to advance spend more time doing them either to complete their work or to do more for that improvement. Or even simply because they enjoy their work.

But the office manager is being absolutely correct in defending the juniors from your demanding, they're not in a very strong individual position to say no, so well done the manager and the company for facilitating it. Why is the company not doing the same for you, or more likely, why are you not taking advantage of it?

You 'came up' in one kind of culture.
The organisation you work for now has another kind of culture.

It really is as simple as that.

It's also this attitude that means women will continue to lag behind men in pay and promotions. Because it's still largely women who take on the larger responsibility for childcare. So more women than men are simply unable to work these long unpredictable hours. Nobody bats an eyelid when men stay late and see their kids less, so they are the ones that "benefit" from this culture of rewarding those that work insane hours.

I say benefit but I truly believe everyone loses out in this long working hours culture.

As someone who has just been into work on my day off to attend a meeting, drop off the work I did at home last night and fire off some emails I think YABU.

I regularly do this and never get the time back. I need to work like this as otherwise patient dare would suffer (NHS). One of my roles is managing junior staff in the department and whilst I offer them locum shifts, as some wasn't the extra cash/experience, I never push them to do it as I feel strongly that I don't want them to become as resentful as I am.

I am a manager. In my experience, if you're working way over your set hours, every week, then one of three things is happening.

1. Your workload is too large, and this needs to be dealt with by your manager.
2. You do not like delegating to others.
3. You manage your time inefficiently.

Obviously this doesn't apply to those who are self employed or work from home, as those hours can be vastly different depending on the week or month.

Oh, and I would add bravo to the manager defending their employees' working hours in your OP!!! More managers should do this and don't.