to get narked at people's managers thinking 45 hours a week is outrageously long hours

[eggyface]

(sorry long, wanna avoid drip feed)

I work in white collar officey work. Classic making presentations, analysing data, sort of stuff. I remember when I was starting out in my industry, working 9.30 until 6.30 with hardly any lunch break was fairly usual. I wouldn't think that was a hard week for someone at the start of their career, learning the ropes. (A hard week might be be two or three nights until 10 or 11, or putting in 5 hours on Saturday).

We work for clients, so the ethos is that we need to service all the projects that come in, but on the other hand we are a big rather stuffy company which doesn't have much of a 'hungry' mentality for work. In our office a manager polices the diary of their team and if someone wants to nab a junior, their manager will often say they can't work on your thing because they're already working enough hours (i.e. 40).

When you're senior and working a longer week than that yourself, this is very annoying!

I know that it's important to protect people's rights and to create a culture where people don't work long hours for the sake of it. And yes, if I'm working long hours that's my problem and I need to organise my diary. But there's got to be some flex, hasn't there? I'd expect all the juniors to be keen to take on a new project even if it made them prioritise work over home life for a bit. I did that and I enjoyed the responsibility and opportunity to shine. AIBU to think that 45 hours is totally reasonable level of overtime to expect in a ft job (NB not paid, can take time off in lieu but in practice this might not happen as you'd be busy the next week)??

In theory, of course it would be great if people didn't have to work over their contracted hours - yes.

But, in reality (and particularly for those being sneery about the 'value' of what the OP does GraysAnalogy) this is what will happen when people who work in these kind of jobs (consultancy style roles, competing for global work) stick to their allotted hours.

They lose contracts and clients to companies who are more competitively priced, do the work to a higher standard (because they're putting more hours in) or can turn the work around more quickly. Now, if these companies are in the UK, it's just some other poor sods doing the work. But increasingly, the competition us coming from further afield, Latam, China. Revenue & tax lost from the UK. Tax that's funding your public sector jobs with more civilised hours.

I'm not saying its right, but that's the reality of it.

From my experience, lots of those who do unpaid overtime do so simply because they can't manage their workloads.

For example, there's a woman in my office who faffs around until 3.30pm ish every day - gossiping, drinking coffee, reading Mail Online. Then she panics, realises she's behind, and works til 7 or 8pm. Every bloody day.

But what really boils my piss is that she then tries to claim the time back when she wants a week's holiday - and usually gets away with it.

Thereby disadvantaging those of us who can manage our workloads, by working flat out from 8 til 5pm and getting the job done. Grrrr.

Oh, and YABU, OP.

Actually no I wasn't sneering about the value of anyones job laurie I quite resent that assertion -as someone who has worked lots of different jobs before this one - but also apologies if I came across that way. Everyones job is valuable, especially to them. But I can see the reason why someone would willingly work overtime if it meant saving someones life, adverse to were your manager just expects it because they want the results on their table. Nothing to do with value. It's about willingness, and expectations.

It's great that you lived your overtime hours as a junior, Eggy. And that you are one of the ones who got promoted, and whose career was evidently not trashed by the economic downturn.

But many people your age and older discovered that, well, only so many senior staff are needed. Of the 10 or 20 you shared those beers with, where are they now? An awful lot of your peers did the same as you but didnt get the promotion because, well, everybody can't. Still, they loved the work! But neither their hours nor their love mattered when they were made redundant, or watched the companies fail when the work dried up. Your juniors watched their parents go through this. Peoples lives, children and marriages were neglected for nothing. End result: employees simply do not believe you when you claim unpaid OT is necessary to getting ahead. They have done it, or witnessed it, and the result was a complete waste of their time, sometimes at great personal cost, with no long term result. 'Getting ahead' at work is no longer a goal. Earning enough for a certain lifestyle is, and then going home on time to live it.

Or you work for somewhere like my DP works at.

It's retail, mostly mail order.

No-one was willing to work overtime over the christmas period because of grievances in the year + they don't actually pay overtime. Oh and also because the poor sods had had to work 4 extra weekend days to be allowed christmas and new year off.

The line managers got everyone in a big group and asked them one by one, in front of everyone, if they were going to do overtime, how much, and if not why not. Apparently one girl burst into tears at being questioned in front of everyone. Those who said no were made to feel like crap and like they weren't 'part of the team'. What, the team that won't even grant you christmas and new year off without working extra, who won't give you overtime, who want official notes if you need a doctors appointment.. just to name a few things. Employers and the managers on the good money seem to demand the world and give little in turn.

I work in an organisation where fun is put before work in some depts....too much gassing and work stretched out to fill the day. I want to work so everyone gets their work done and then has the fun! Lots of us stay over an hour or two daily....wouldn't need to if ppl worked faster.

mackerel why not simply refuse to do it and tell them it's not acceptable for you or you want overtime to be paid? Are you nervous this may mean they look to replace you?

Right Gnome, I will expect you to work all the hours God sends. I will treat you like shit. I will expect you to change your holidays at short notice at your own expense. No matter how early you start, how late you stay, how hard you work, it wont be enough.

Gnome again as with Mackerel I am interested in understanding why you stay? As others have posted, why not leave this position if you feel your company/boss lied to you about what's expected or changed the terms of your agreement with them?

I have always struggled to understand why people stay in a job they either don't like or a company they don't respect or a company they feel is taking the piss.

My company was very clear about expectations at my level and salary / bonuses. I went into it with my eyes open and one of the reasons I am taking a few years sabbatical (SAH with DD) is because my role is not conducive to a part time position. It's also well known in the industry that my type of role can mean long hours and a lot of traveling at times. I went into it fully understanding what it would entail but I really love what I do.

timeaftertime what was the point in your post? . Be it for, against or somewhere in between there are some very interesting posts/comments with reasoning been made. I am at a loss to understand what the point of yours is?

It's also this attitude that means women will continue to lag behind men in pay and promotions. Because it's still largely women who take on the larger responsibility for childcare. So more women than men are simply unable to work these long unpredictable hours. Nobody bats an eyelid when men stay late and see their kids less, so they are the ones that "benefit" from this culture of rewarding those that work insane hours.

This poster put it in a nutshell. My career is giving me clinical anxiety now because of this reason. I am part time and feel I must be available in my nonwork days and stay late wherever possible. No I am not in well paid legal or finance sector I either just have very poor management which sounds like your office culture too.

Expectations like yours- expecting low waged colleagues to help you manage an under resourced system- are having a direct negative effect on my mental health and family life. This pressure is why I am awake now when I should be asleep.

OP this isn't boarding school in the olden days where the older kids disciplined the younger ones to get someone back for the punishments they had themselves. You already have your senior position. No need to make younger ones suffer now to keep this 'culture' going.

USE your seniority and power to make the business case for change and better resource that you need. Your junior (and part time colleagues with caring responsibilities!) have little power to do so other than vote with their feet and leave. It's not so easy to do that. YABVU and your expectations are exploitative, sorry.

GymBum, quite simply I need a job. I am the main breadwinner in my household. My salary needs to feed, clothe and house 5 people.

I am embarrassed by how I was treated and it has totally blown my confidence. I am a qualified accountant, a grown up but my boss reduced me to tears on a number of occasions.

In my late 40s, new jobs arent so easy to find especially when the economy was in the pits. Perhaps it will start to improve soon and I will be able to get another job. In the mean time I suck it up.

so many people at the end of their lives say ' I wish I worked more at the office'

Your an idiot and presenteeism does not equal commitment

I work in an office not dissimilar to yours and it's this kind of attitude that causes people to leave, good committed people

I know people who put in long hours and do fuck all compared to those working their contracted hours

GraysAnalogy that sounds horrific about DW, I know unions get crap but this is where they need to intervene. That just sounds like school ground bullying. Is this male and female managers doing this.

This is sometimes the thing I find most sad is senior women beasting other women who have a family. Who I would have thought would have more appreciation for family.

It's my DH and he's a manager himself (not a line manager) so feels the same pressures as the rest of them, it's horrible. I fumed when he told me had had already written a grievance letter in my head by the time he'd finished his story.

I've been pushing for him to join a union. He's one of them though who will complain but won't do anything about it.

Sorry for mix up Grays,

If they could get away with it film this on a phone and post and tag the company with a vine of it!

Im a member of prospect, I see it as a way of having a safety net in case your employer ever tried to pull anything silly and you can get access to legal representation of equal quality to what your company might throw at you.

No worries at all breakingdad

That would be a great idea. I remember one man who worked there took a audio recording of a 'chat' the big manager had with him. He was the first to go when redundancies came about. I don't think he ever took it further, not just that but there's costs involved now isn't there that many people can't afford upfront.

I think at his place of work that culture just exists now and no-one stands up to the plate and actually does something about it, probably for fear of losing their job. It shouldn't have to be like that in this day and age.

YABVU.
I don't work for free. No one should.
I am a highly skilled professional and I never work more than 35 hours a week.
Only in the UK do people assume that more = better. Productivity is greatly increased when people work more sensible hours and have a better work life balance.

Ah, I looked into recording because of it being discussed on here (not because I needed to record an employer at that moment).

Some employment contracts now include a clause designating recording as gross misconduct which can itself lead to dismissal.

Came up on sites where HR were saying basically, "OMG, what do you do when employee has recorded proof of manager being awful to them..."

Recording is a hard route to choose and how much the senior management are actually committed to dealing with it. If people are recording it then surely it would show your managers have got out of control, but still HR could take a dim view, anoymous internet posting? or if its a well know brand maybe try to get a consumer show/ undercover employee involved.

Grays, a temp guy worked for us who was part way into his legal constructive dismissal case with his employees, a new manager newly ex army (this is not a dig) bullied him out of the workplace. He was having to subpoena his colleagues (on their guidance) to make testimonies against this guy.

I think he won/out of of court but obv ends up black mark on your cv.

Op, I'm proud to say I was sacked from a job that is very similar to what you have described. I was a junior and refused to work all the hours that were expected for no extra money or time off. I also answered back when senior staff didn't say please or thank you and treated me like dirt (yes, I was a very gobby young woman!)

Failing my trial period with a job I hated was the very best thing that ever happened to me as it inspired me to work for myself.

IMHO if you can't make money with people working a regular week then you don't have a viable business. I am very fed up of the long hours required by my employer. 60 hours a week of billable time is 1.5 jobs and the hourly rate puts us at minimum wage.

The only reason I am still here is because I am being very picky about where I want to work. I only want to work for one of two local employers who are 2 and 3 blocks from my home. I am exhausted on a part time schedule. Those on full time schedules are already handing in their notices and taking jobs anywhere else as the pay is more.

It does big the shit out of me that my intern who got paid hourly and overtime has been paid more than I have over the past 3 months. It isn't right.

Bug not big