to get narked at people's managers thinking 45 hours a week is outrageously long hours

[eggyface]

(sorry long, wanna avoid drip feed)

I work in white collar officey work. Classic making presentations, analysing data, sort of stuff. I remember when I was starting out in my industry, working 9.30 until 6.30 with hardly any lunch break was fairly usual. I wouldn't think that was a hard week for someone at the start of their career, learning the ropes. (A hard week might be be two or three nights until 10 or 11, or putting in 5 hours on Saturday).

We work for clients, so the ethos is that we need to service all the projects that come in, but on the other hand we are a big rather stuffy company which doesn't have much of a 'hungry' mentality for work. In our office a manager polices the diary of their team and if someone wants to nab a junior, their manager will often say they can't work on your thing because they're already working enough hours (i.e. 40).

When you're senior and working a longer week than that yourself, this is very annoying!

I know that it's important to protect people's rights and to create a culture where people don't work long hours for the sake of it. And yes, if I'm working long hours that's my problem and I need to organise my diary. But there's got to be some flex, hasn't there? I'd expect all the juniors to be keen to take on a new project even if it made them prioritise work over home life for a bit. I did that and I enjoyed the responsibility and opportunity to shine. AIBU to think that 45 hours is totally reasonable level of overtime to expect in a ft job (NB not paid, can take time off in lieu but in practice this might not happen as you'd be busy the next week)??

so interesting! thanks all!

Is very hard not to drip feed. Am new to this...

MrsRyan - ah, I wasn't clear! I win a job, cos I'm a senior person I am ultimately responsible for delivering it. I want to ask the juniors if they're up for taking on more work, so we can make a team to do the job. Line managers, who don't have the responsibility to the client that I do, stop me even asking the juniors if they can help. The line managers don't care about my project, they care about the hours of the juniors.

Now I write it, I think that's the problem - there are some people bringing in the work (necessary) and some people protecting the staff from overwork (also necessary). Perhaps these 2 things are always in natural tension and actually we have the perfect solution! It just feels a bit Darwinian to have to be struggling to get a team while people are giving me a 'computer says no' answer instead of us all thinking how best to deploy the resources we have.

There almost seems to be a feeling that juniors can't be expected to put up with any inconvenience at all.

Totally agree with everyone that hiring enough people to do the job neatly in 40 hours per week for everyone would be the ideal. But it's hard to run a business where the work coming in doesn't slightly lag behind the staffing - you hire more, but it takes time, and who does the work in the meantime?

A long hours hideous presenteeism culture is terrible I totally agree. I am shamed in case it looks like I endorse this. Am wondering how to find the right balance, basically.

Lauriefairycake has got it I think. there's some element of putting in an extra mile that benefits everyone, but I haven't worked out how to make it happen without it being exploitative of someone!!

thatstoast - it's actually brilliant but I've made it sound exceptionally dull ! :0)

I cant stand people at work with your attitude.

Yabvu.

Family and health always come first. Always.

Nobody should feel pressured to work long unpaid hours regularly.

I worked in finance before being a temporary SAHM, and a 60 hour week is standard (often much longer). However I wouldn't expect anyone else to work over their contracted hours. We all have different priorities. You can't expect other people to do it just because you do.
In reality my long week was due to an inability to say no and a culture of 'presenteeism'. Realistically no one should be working that number of unpaid hours.

What kind of job? I mean clocking off midway through an operation is clearly not on, but generic office work?

I do lots of overtime and I'm not paid for it. I do, allegedly, get time in lieu, but the problem is that my boss piles so much work on me that I can't take any of that time. Last year, work owed me twelve weeks! Not a thank you, not a penny in recompense and not a jot of time off. I will not be doing that this year.

I do have the mentality that there are times when people need to pitch in and work, but I make it very clear to my team that if they do that, I expect to see them have a long lunch / take the time elsewhere. For most of my team, this actually works well for them - they have increased flexibility. You want a couple of hours off to see your kid in the school play? Great, off you go, I know you did that early call with Japan last week.

The problem comes when this extra work becomes the norm. You then have set your benchmark at 45 hours a week and that's what's expected, then more gets added on top, and that's when people break.

If you're regularly having to work overtime, you're either not good at you job, or your boss is not good at hers.

People have lives outside work - you see someone clocking off at five everyday, but maybe they have caring responsibilities? Or maybe they just have a passion outside work?

My employers pay a lot of lip service to flexibility, but for me, they mean 'be available 22 hours a day.' I try to shield my team from all this shit but it's hard, so yes, you are being a bit unreasonable. I understand your view, but still. :)

May I ask, OP, what sort of home life you have?

I'm a manager and while I have done lots of unpaid overtime in the past I certainly don't expect my staff to do it.
If I do work extra, I do it because I choose to do it.
I want my staff to be happy in their work and have a good work/ life balance. In the same way I do for myself. I don't see a hierarchy. We are a team and I need everyone to perform to their best
I bet the staff morale in tour workplace is through the floor

Haven't you considered that some people can't afford to do unpaid overtime, because it means paying for childcare and not earning the money to cover it? I work a job that means all hours are paid, so if I do start early or finish late, I get paid for it anyway, but I rarely bother.

I would rather be at home with my partner than working. Work to live, not live to work. There's more to life than sitting in an office.

If periods of work where putting in over the odds hours are frequent can you go to the managers (sensibly) managing the diaries with a discussion about the use of TOIL? That way those volunteering to extend their experience will get their time back? The managers can then perhaps place limits on how much TOIL people accrue/ when it can be taken in order to manage staffing standard hours.

I feel I should add that I am in fact a freelance illustrator, and my working day is approx 9-11pm or later, 7 days a week. I'm not averse to long working hours, however my hours benefit ME and not my manager, and I get the pay directly.

I think there needs to be a shift away from the attitude that lots of people have in this country towards working hours - as most have said, fewer hours and more flexible working lead to a better home/work balance which ultimately benefits the company through more productive work hours.

You simply cannot expect people to work more than their contracted hours for no pay. You say they receive TOIL but if they're expected to work long hours, I bet the reality is it's frowned upon to actually take it.

When selling something to others you have to give them the 'what is in it for me?'

You say there is the opportunity to take on more responsibility and to shine.

But just how real is this? Will these trainees get a credit for their work or will there just be a mumbled 'yeah, the team helped out'.

Up until recently times have been hard so the 'what is in it for me' has been keeping a job. Now, I'm not so sure and I think a lot of companies are going to find that employees who have been used and abused are going to start to move on. It will start as a trickle and will then turn into a bit of a flood in my some companies.

Surely the answer is optional paid overtime? Then the juniors who want the opportunity to stand out/shine can take on more work, and they're not being exploited?

Eggy, resourcing is really tough and sooooo hard to get right. How long is the 'pipeline' from bidding for the work/getting it to start up?

I manage my team by making sure new hires are rotated around projects as they train. I make sure that each team has a sort of backup team that they can displace work onto as we have a natural ebb and flow across a project. I also keep in very close touch with them and encourage anyone with spare time to help out those who are experiencing a peak in work. This is good because you end up with a robust team - if someone is out sick, there is always at least one person who can step in. It also means the team is experiencing reciprocity a lot - you help me, I'll help you etc. I publically praise efforts like this as well, and make sure my team know to let me know if they see a peak in work coming, or if they are too busy.

Managing workloads is not easy, it really isn't. I do start from the assumption that all my team have a set number of contracted hours a week and they must be allowed vacation. It drives my usa based boss INSANE...and yet my team is most productive ;)

This is reminding me of my old job. I put in long hours (unpaid), did everything I could to project manage as best as possible.

No recognition, no reward, just expected. I eventually became so stressed and frenzied I could no longer work at all.

I abhor your attitude, OP. People shouldn't be expected to work for free. Some people, if possible, will be happy in their jobs and will want to help out now and again. But it shouldn't be expected or be the norm.

I find this thread sad, actually.

I think it's great that somebody is protecting the keen juniors from themselves. I worked my ass off in a 'keen' and 'hungry' industry as a junior, and one works from 8am the others have to be in before 8, one stays till 7pm, the other stay till 7:30, then suddently everybody's doing twelve hour days in order to not be 'the one who leaves 'early'. It's competitive madness but understandable on the part of the juniors that are competing for promotion and kudos.
Good for your line managers :)

the answer i should say to our snowballing stupid situation was a formal flexi time system where people who put in the hours one week were NOT ALLOWED to do the same the following week as all flexi had to be taken before the month end.
it worked well, you should consider it.

I was always happy doing extra work when I got overtime.

It irritates me at work where a bid for some work was stupidly underbid by a manager and won and then they expect the people working on it to not book the actual hours to the system needed to deliver it so they meet their profit target.

YABVU.

Maybe I just don't have enough ambition, but as a junior doing my own work, at minimum wage I might add, would I really want to help you do YOUR work that you will get credit for, for nothing other than a possibility you might talk me up?

Not likely. You need to manage your hours better, hire your own junior, whatever, just don't expect people to pick up the slack for nothing!

PS - I work 35 hours a week for a massive company, if I do overtime I am either paid for it or I take TOIL. My boss wouldn't have it any other way (and no, I'm nt a junior anymore).

Does your company have a rotation for juniors? Is there the opportunity for juniors to be seconded properly into your team as part of their training? This gives them visibility of what is going on in your department and will also allow you to structure work so that there is less crisis management.

Oh, and no of course you dont ask the juniors directly without going through their line manager. That is just bad manners.

It's a tricky one as i worked up in the culture you did but have never seen this kind of behaviour of restricting hours which for me does not fit with a aspiring professional to me.

My dad summed it up years ago saying that their are certain jobs where 'you are paid to get the job done' and these tend to be professional managerial level jobs and others which tend to be by the hour which tend to be lesser paid non career jobs. He said the only difference was healthcare and those involving safety e.g. pilots

i would expect any professional or aspiring professional to work to get the job done - my only caveat is that maybe thats not about getting your job done for you!

Do you have a day off today OP? Or are you MN'ing in work hours (like I do)?

However when I have work deadlines etc to meet, I will reduce or eliminate the MN'ing and focus on my deadline. It's amazing how effective that simply policy is.

We have something similar, museum - flexi time that resets to x hours a month if you go over. Unfortunately, that just meant I lost all the overtime I accrued as my boss is incapable of understanding that the world is in fact a sphere, and thus has time zones :( she thinks nothing of having me manage everywhere from oz to UK because it's the "rest of the world" while her lot deal with the Americas, which, surprise surprise, have only a few time zones. Grr.
after making me attend calls at 3 am and 5 am, and midnight and ten pm one week, she had the gall to make exaggerated yawning noises because she had to be on a call at 7 her time ! I could spit, some days.....

i would expect any professional or aspiring professional to work to get the job done

I am a professional and used to have this attitude. I regularly worked significantly over my contracted hours for many years. I got no OT (only lower paid staff got that), no TOIL (too much work to be able to do that) and no thanks, no bonus payments etc. Then I came to my senses and realised that I was being a mug of the highest order and overnight decided to no longer play that game. I now do my contracted hours and no more - no staying late, no weekend working, no calls out of hours. It's a 2 way street - treat me well and I'll go the extra mile for you but take me for granted and I'll do my job but no more. My work life balance is now so much better and I'm less stressed.

This speech by Bryan Dyson, ex-CEO at Coca-Cola pretty much sums it up -

"Imagine life as a game in which you are juggling some five balls in the air. You name them – Work, Family, Health, Friends and Spirit and you’re keeping all of these in the air.
You will soon understand that work is a rubber ball. If you drop it, it will bounce back. But the other four balls – Family, Health, Friends and Spirit – are made of glass. If you drop one of these; they will be irrevocably scuffed, marked, nicked, damaged or even shattered. They will never be the same. You must understand that and strive for it.
Work efficiently during office hours and leave on time. Give the required time to your family, friends and have proper rest. Value has a value only if its value is valued."

The long hours culture can keep good people out of some industries.

I have a first class honours degree in a scientific subject so could probably work in the banking industry, which I quite fancy because I am genuinely interested in 'numbers', rather than for the money.

But there is no way on earth that I am going to sell my soul to an employer who thinks that they are entitled to commander my entire waking hours and then some.

John I had exactly the same in my old job. Until we had a new HR manager come in who set a limit on overtime (I think it was maximum 3 hours in one week) and introduced a rule that TOIL had to be taken within 2 weeks of accruing it. Amazingly, our managers coped, we all learned to prioritise, and our efficiency actually went up, so that we were delivering the same amount of work (on average) in less time. More importantly, junior staff were MUCH happier and less stressed.

I used to work like that. Now I run a large team and find I retain talented people for longer, and their performance is better, if I try to enable decent work-life balance - including ring-fencing a set proportion of they'd time for learning, development, admin and management-related activities. If 40 hours of their week are already booked up with delivery, they still have to find time for the other stuff.