to get narked at people's managers thinking 45 hours a week is outrageously long hours

[eggyface]

(sorry long, wanna avoid drip feed)

I work in white collar officey work. Classic making presentations, analysing data, sort of stuff. I remember when I was starting out in my industry, working 9.30 until 6.30 with hardly any lunch break was fairly usual. I wouldn't think that was a hard week for someone at the start of their career, learning the ropes. (A hard week might be be two or three nights until 10 or 11, or putting in 5 hours on Saturday).

We work for clients, so the ethos is that we need to service all the projects that come in, but on the other hand we are a big rather stuffy company which doesn't have much of a 'hungry' mentality for work. In our office a manager polices the diary of their team and if someone wants to nab a junior, their manager will often say they can't work on your thing because they're already working enough hours (i.e. 40).

When you're senior and working a longer week than that yourself, this is very annoying!

I know that it's important to protect people's rights and to create a culture where people don't work long hours for the sake of it. And yes, if I'm working long hours that's my problem and I need to organise my diary. But there's got to be some flex, hasn't there? I'd expect all the juniors to be keen to take on a new project even if it made them prioritise work over home life for a bit. I did that and I enjoyed the responsibility and opportunity to shine. AIBU to think that 45 hours is totally reasonable level of overtime to expect in a ft job (NB not paid, can take time off in lieu but in practice this might not happen as you'd be busy the next week)??

I used to work in a similar industry to the one you describe. I used to be the junior pulling 45 hour weeks as standard, never home before 7, often working in the evenings, sometimes working weekends. All for no paid overtime and certainly not equivalent time off in lieu (maybe one day for 3 weeks of 70+ hours). I saw senior managers encourage this culture because they'd experienced this level of work and it was 'expected' to 'service' our clients.

Then I realised it was a self fulfilling prophecy. The company only made such big profits because of the un paid overtime. Directors got bonuses based on account profitability - unpaid overtime = more profit. The seniors expected it of the juniors because they'd had to do it themselves. Clients got used to us over delivering and would really push the limits of reasonability.

I left because I realised I didn't want to be one of those seniors pushing people to the limit because I'd experienced the same thing and I was fine. I wasnt fine. It ruined my wedding preparation as DH had to sort it all as I was working stupidly long hours (first train in the morning and last train at night) and worked both weekend days. It ruined my health with migraines and general tension headaches. It caused heartburn and insomnia and if my DH wasn't so amazing it would have made me depressed and he would have left me. One client even tried persuading my company to not overload me but nothing changed. Other clients phoned me late at night to ask for something for the morning knowing I'd still be there and I'd have to get that done too.

Just because you did it when you were a junior doesn't make it right. It's exploiting people's good nature. It's taking advantage of people who don't know any better. It's not paying someone for work done. It's not OK. So eggyface maybe if YOUR managers had been more protective of your time when you were a junior you would be less keen to complain about other managers being protective of their staff. Your story was my story. But I decided it wasn't OK to make people regularly work unpaid overtime. If the business can't manage without it then the business needs to restructure or manage client expectations better.

I have seen so many people burn out because of this attitude. Myself included. I have a life now, and there's no way that I'll be going back to that way of working.

It's very difficult as a line manager when you see your charges being asked to take on more & more because they are helpful, they want to impress, then to watch them tip themselves over the edge because what is being asked of them is beyond the realms of "helping out".

Exactly, DancingHat. A company that turns a profit on unpaid overtime - effectively 'stolen' time - is no better than anyone that makes money on stolen goods.

I am happy to sell eight hours of my life per day to my employers at a rate agreeable to me, but that doesn't mean that they are entitled to help themselves to more than that for free, simply because I allow them to pay me for some of it.

Imagine if we applied that logic to shopping. Every week I buy milk, I need milk, without milk I can't make tea or cheese sauce or porridge. Does that mean that I can help myself to an extra bottle one day because I want to make some milkshakes? Of course it doesn't. If I need more milk, I have to buy more milk, even if I really really need to make milkshakes right now.

The only difference is, shops can replace their stock. We can't replace our time.

And for the record, I am posting on a train back from a work-related event that by the time I get home will have represented an extra 6 hours of work today. Seven if you include the fact I missed lunch. I'm not workshy and do what I need to do because I'm only 3 months into my job and have no rights, but I still think it's deeply unfair.

Mackerel I am not attacking you. I genuinely am interested and would like to understand. Why would you stay in a job you sound so unhappy in? Why would you work for a company you feel is deeply unfair? Prior to accepting the position where you aware you may/would need to attend such work related events outside usual working hours?

Its not about being happy or unhappy in your job. I love my job and the day just flies by, very very occasionally I work a bit later but usually I leave at 5.30 because I love my family and friends more than my job. Love the milk comparison

Save unsure if part of you post was in response to mine. I am interested in Mackerels thoughts mainly because she has only been with the company three months. I guess I am wondering if Mackerel was aware of the company's expectation regards attending events/overtime or if this was sprung on her once she joined them.

Dh does 8.00 till 6.30 -7.00 every day! He working till 11pm friday and sat this weekend.

GymBum I'm not unhappy in the job, no. I like the job in fact. I didn't realise there would be overtime without TOIL, and I don't actually mind doing it most of the time - but it should be on my terms, not theirs, because unless they're paying for it, it's my time.

Maybe that doesn't make sense. It's not my job specifically that bothers me - it's a culture where businesses can steal from individuals and that's fine, but individuals stealing from businesses is a crime.

I am in agreement with those who think the OP is unreasonable. Helping out in a genuine crisis maybe, but never on a regular basis.

Did you start this thread to try to show off about your boring job?

YABU

If a job requires 45 hours a week then the contract should reflect that, not 37 hours a week with an expected 8 hours unpaid overtime because it's customary/what everyone does/normal in a professional role etc.

....I guess I am wondering if Mackerel was aware of the company's expectation regards attending events/overtime or if this was sprung on her once she joined them....

IME companies are very tight-lipped about the realities of the job at the recruitment stage.

If my boss had been honest about what my work would entail she would have said something like:

Right Gnome, I will expect you to work all the hours God sends. I will treat you like shit. I will expect you to change your holidays at short notice at your own expense. No matter how early you start, how late you stay, how hard you work, it wont be enough.

When can you start?

Gnome? Gnome.........?

OP YABVVVU!

Attitudes like yours are the reason I had a breakdown at the age of 28 and ended up off work for 6 months. I literally couldn't get out of bed one day and narrowly avoided being sectioned under the mental health act. I am still unwell now as to an extent the damage has been done and I dearsay I won't ever be the same again.

I was at the top of my game, I had an incredibly well paid job, I was well respected within my industry and regularly had headhunters approaching me for more senior positions. I worked so hard for my job, so many years of studying and building my skills. I was working 6 days a week and looking after a baby. It wasn't sustainable.

The lesson I learnt is that life is too short. The work would never be "finished". If I did everything asked of me, they'd simply pile on more so I could pick up the slack from elsewhere. No paid overtime, no lieu time. Nothing.

These days I work part time in a job I bloody hate because my anxiety levels are such that I can't work full time anymore. I have to nap during the day on my days off and plan my activities carefully as the mental and physical fatigue I have are so debilitating.

Attitudes such as these are what hold women back in the workplace. We are deemed "slackers" if we work part time. If we dare to place importance on our families then we are seen as "undedicated". If I was a slacker or undedicated would I have studied 7 years in total to get the job I have?!

We aren't in the dark ages. Attitudes have changed and I am pleased to see some of the managers in your organisation feel that way.

Erm no.

I work longer hours because it either puts peoples minds at rest, stops their pain, helps their recovery or saves their lives. I would hope 'juniors' to stop longer if it mean one of these would be fulfilled promptly but would never ever expect it of them or look down on them if it wasn't.

I personally think you need to get over yourself and realise that crunching numbers or whatever you're doing isn't the be all and end all and people have no obligation to put in all the hours god sends, sacrificing their life for a job and MAYBE work their way up in a company that is going to expect the same for god knows how long.

No ta.

Exactly everstrong, in certain jobs you can never ever be 'finished'. Its ongoing. You could live there and the work would carry on.It was the same when I had a desk job.

People that work unpaid overtime are a massive problem IMHO.

Unpaid overtime screws up so many things like home life, the economy, working mothers, pay etc.

People seem to think that you can get ahead by putting in long hours but all it's really doing is screwing everything up.

and why does ambitious = working every hour god sends.

People can be ambitious without being able to do that. I can do it, others can't but I'm sure they want what I have just as much.

Lol

Nobody should have to work regular overtime. If the job requires more hours then additional staff should be employed. Existing staff should receive a decent wage so they don't need to work all hours. Unpaid overtime is theft. I don't mean the odd emergency when it's all hands to the pump but a culture where it is expected that staff will regularly work extra hours without adequate compensation

great post everstrong. So sorry work caused you so much pain. Crazy to think that could ever happen. I'm angry on your behalf.

And the last person who suggested to me that a part timer was slacking got such a mouthful back that I silenced a very busy office. Of course, she changed her tune when she had her child and wanted to job share. But by then those who echoed her sentiments were in charge and job shares were a thing of the past...

When I was part time, our new big boss once told me that my shift pattern was hard to justify: I asked her why, bearing in mind that it was exactly half my full time shift for half my money and the other other half of my role was done by my fab job sharer. Was she then suggesting that the full time roles were equally difficult to justify? Of course not! Well she got her way in the end: only 6 part timers in the whole company now. Shocking.

Forgive me, what I meant to say was that you should work to live not live to work. Yes, working a bit longer than 9-5 isn't a disaster but continually expecting people to work for no pay and no recompense at the expense of their home/social/family life? Not on. You want extra work done? Pay for it.

Yanbvvu. It is not healthy.

If they choose to do longer hours, they should be paid for that.

Tbh, I'm amazed unpaid overtime is considered reasonable by anyone as a long term solution! If your business model relies on people working without pay you need to address the way you run your business.

The attitude "I had it hard, so they should have it hard too" is shit.

Josh

Sometimes overtime is completely necessary and legitimate. Transient workloads often occur or if a schedule changes. If the increase isn't large enough to warrant the cost of advertising and recruiting then overtime is fine.

However it should always be paid or time given off in lieu. Unpaid is taking the Mick.