To think that if grammar schools were more available , private schools would almost 'vanish'

[smokepole]

The percentage of pupils educated in private schools is about 7% of the school population, similarly 4% are educated in grammar schools. I am wondering if there was a 'nationally' available network of about 350 grammar schools (including Boarding provision) , what percentage of parents would still use private education.

But most kids don't pass the 11 plus - that's the whole point of it - so surely more grammar schools would just lead to more parents choosing private to escape the secondary modern?

I think that grammars have been ruined now by becoming elitist. They have to be (at least in my home town) because every parent wants their child to go there, not because they think their child is special

Exactly. Which is why, In Northern Ireland, where the grammar school system is widespread, private schools are virtually unknown. They aren't needed.

lol but private ones are?!

I live near a unitary authority where there are two grammar schools - one for boys and one for girls. Of the remaining schools - comprehensives - only one gets a good number of pupils students to university.

Outside that authority (ours) the schools are all comprehensive and stream the pupils into grammar or not sets. They get pupils through to Oxbridge as well as red brick and other universities.

Also, the 11+ is not the only way into a grammar school. The test could be taken at 13+ as well if teachers think that a pupil has blossomed so there is / was a second chance.

A secondary modern in my day was usually vocation focussed and I remember that one girl finished up as a stenographer (shorthand typist) which, in those days was well paid and might still be. They weren't all waitresses or working in shops. Boys were shewn carpentry and metalwork so had opportunities too.

I have to say though that there were fewer universities in those days so, if you went to a grammar school you didn't automatically go to university because there were not enough places. I know because I went to a grammar school and support the movement towards them..

So it's now acceptable to describe children As 'posh thickos'? Nice would we describe then as council estate thick is or poor and thick? I don't think so. Same as Islam being given respect and Christianity ridiculed. And just to he clear, I'm a working class atheist bug I just hate double standards.

er. yes.

plus ER yes to religion.

I don't see why secondary modern schools would have to return even if we were to bring back the grammar school system.

Comprehensives can and do operate successfully alongside grammars. They do here (Essex).

If a child didn't pass the 11+ and get a grammar school place then they would go to a comprehensive school. Comprehensives offer more flexibility than the old secondary moderns did. They can work well for children who are not ready for too much in the way of formal exams at age 10 or 11, but who mature later on that score.

So it's now acceptable to describe children As 'posh thickos'? Nice hmm would we describe then as council estate thick is or poor and thick? I don't think so. Same as Islam being given respect and Christianity ridiculed. And just to he clear, I'm a working class atheist bug I just hate double standards.

Of course! Didn't you know all children who attend private schools are fair game for adults to ridicule.

surely comprehensives are secondary moderns where grammars exist? as the top kids would be creamed off?

pokes off the rich kids' boaters

If there's a grammar school in your area then I would say the comp is a secondary modern in all but name.

yup. Not all abilities represented, apart from the handful every year who decide not to take up a grammar place

Sorry improbable- cross posted!

"So it's now acceptable to describe children As 'posh thickos'? Nice hmm would we describe then as council estate thick is or poor and thick? I don't think so. Same as Islam being given respect and Christianity ridiculed. And just to he clear, I'm a working class atheist bug I just hate double standards."
Oh don't be silly. I wouldn't say "posh thickos" myself, but far worse things are said about kids in comprehensives or- perish the thought- secondary moderns on mumsnet every day.

And the muslim/christian thing is just ludicrous. . Try being a Muslim in Britain today and see how much respect you get. And show me some ridicule directed at Christians.-I don't mind waiting.

What do you mean 'yes' to religion? All religion is nonsense as far as I'm concerned. I don't think one version of nonsense deserves any more respect than another. The beliefs that is, not the individuals.

And, if someone came on saying about their child being in the second from bottom set at a comp, nobody says, 'suck it up cause they're thick.' Nor should they.
Also, the assumption that everyone paying fees is rich. Round here, and in many parts of the country, it can cost 8k a year per child so 2 public sector worker such as a teacher married to a nurse with combined income around 65k with a reasonable mortgage could afford 1 or 2 sets of fees. Hardly rich!

improbablesaint are you going to make an actual point about the issues raised or just continue posting snide LOLs?

You wouldn't want to come across as a bit, y'know, thick, after all...

oh and yes I would make the same comments about any religion,

Actually, Hakluyt, I don't think there's widespread ridicule of kids at comp at all on MN. The vast majority of kids will go to comp, many of them are fantastic, done are shit just like in the private sector. I don't judged kids by the school they attend.
I certainly don't think Christianity shouldn't be open for ridicule. I'm an atheist as I said. I just don't think we should pussyfoot around intellectual ridicule of Islam either.

Really? You obviously obviously haven't spent much time on the threads where the prospect of sending one's child to a comprehensive is discussed............I have seen knuckle draggers, chair throwers, mouth breathers, dregs to name a few. "Posh thickos" pales a bit before that..........

Where I live there are no grammars, but increasingly good comprehensive schools getting excellent A level results and sending large numbers of students to leading universities (incl. Oxbridge). The private schools, of which there are a number, are having to work very hard indeed to compete, and are losing students to the compehensive schools, expecially in the sixth form.

So we have a large choice of non-feepaying schools where it is not hugely competitive to get in, but where the teaching is good enough that, if the student is academic and motivated, there is no barrier to progress. The sports facilities may not be ace, but the coaching often is.

The majority of kids who got into the top set had attended Kumon or something similar, and had been drilled in how to pass the tests.

I could have been drilled to kingdom come and never been able to pass the tests or done the maths necessary for grammar.

Yep, really. I've been on MN for 11yrs and sure, I've seen a few threads with that sentiment but those posters are normally flamed and rightly so.
I regularly seen private schools discussed in a derogatory way and sneered at massively if they don't fall into either the elitist camp such as Eton or the super selective camp such as Habs girls. The sneers are always, 'oh why bother paying for that' or the 'my kids went to the comp and my neighbour paid and my pfb got better Alevels than hers'. I want to scream So f'ing what!

"Posh thickos" pales a bit before that..........

Oh thats OK then! Two wrongs make a right do they

I agree red some have massive chips