To think that if grammar schools were more available , private schools would almost 'vanish'

[smokepole]

The percentage of pupils educated in private schools is about 7% of the school population, similarly 4% are educated in grammar schools. I am wondering if there was a 'nationally' available network of about 350 grammar schools (including Boarding provision) , what percentage of parents would still use private education.

The Cat. There are also some parents who bought Mercedes S classes and sent their daughter to a Modern school (not looking at you dad !).

"She obviously passed her 11+ because she worked hard and was bright"

I would have much less of an issue with the selective system if that was how it worked!

caroldecker Tue 17-Mar-15 00:53:05

As my link above showed, selective areas have better results than fully comprehensive areas, which are worse than average.

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As most areas are fully comprehensive, they can't all be worse than average.

Also, can't find the link, now, but does it compare like with like, in terms of the profile of families in the area (socio-economic, parents' own education etc)?

I don't think you can .meaningfully compare 11+ areas with comp areas because there is a huge cross boundary flow.

During my time on MN I have seen a huge difference in attitude to schools depending on whether you live in London/SE or elsewhere (especially the NW where I live).

I live in what is probably considered a deprived area. No Grammar or private schools within my area. A real mix of crap, average and the odd very good comprehensive. If you send your child to a private fee paying school, you are seen as 'posh' or 'above your station'. I do wish we had more choice, but not to the extent that people do in London/SE. It all sounds horrendous.

Where I live (if we had choices), private fee paying would be seen as the posh option and only for the brightest and richest, Grammar would be something that working class families would aspire to (but not quite as good as private) and your local comp would be just some where that most people send their kids to. Prior to 1974 when we did have Grammar schools, a lot of people still aspired to send their kids to places like MGS or Stockport Grammar as the fee paying schools were still seen as better and got better results. The tests for these schools were much tougher than the 11+.

Not having Private or Grammar schools in my area has not made the other schools any better.

I don't know what the answer is, other than improve all state schools to the point of being as good as Grammar/private. I just can't see this happening, so what we need is more choice. My choice is average state comp or send my DS out of the area to a fee paying Grammar (which I hope to do).

" don't think you can .meaningfully compare 11+ areas with comp areas because there is a huge cross boundary flow"

Not in Kent there isn't- grammar schools have catchments! The ones I know best have catchments of about 6-7 miles.

Hakluyt @ 07.59 it's not because of snobbery or grades even that I don't want my level 6 kids mixing with level 3 kids - it's the bullying and life long residual anxiety from my own secondary comp days (where I was the level 6 kid) from which I want to protect my kids.

There are valid points on all sides, but as parents we make our decisions and choices for our own kids based on our own experiences and ideology. My experience meant we pursued a grammar education for our kids.

Which is not to say that I think that comps are full of "mouth breathers" and "chair throwers" etc. Or that those who pay for private schools are "rich and thick". Generalising is not helpful in these sorts of discussions.

Hakluyt - It's not snobbery here that I would like to keep the 11+ system in Kent. My reluctance is from being educated in a large state comp - 12 form entry when I went. The sheer scale of it for a 'middle of the road' student (not top set, not bottom, not going particularly stand out) meant that the care side just wasn't there.

I would like my children to go to a smaller school, but if you do a small comprehensive school, it's very hard to stream well, just because you don't have enough children at each level. The comprehensive streaming system only really works best in a big school with enough children at each level. (so you do't get 6s and 3s being taught together, but you do get 5s and 6s, great for 'pulling up' the 5s, not so the 6s not being stretched).

It's much easier to stream within a small group if that group has already been split once so you only have 5s ad 6s or below 4s.

Golden - there used to be a 13+ intake at most grammers in Kent for the "sick on the day of the 11+" or "late developer", but as class sizes became capped, that died off as they couldn't just take in another load of children at year 9 easily. They would be an argument for getting state grammers to have an extra form entry at 13 for those children. Not sure how that would be funded as current system kind of assumes you fill to capcity at year 7 then just go through with the same number until 6th form.

Good secondary moderns should be perfect for those 'ill on the day' or 'boarderline just failed' DCs, they would be the top set of that school. I'm always impressed with the 'high' schools in the next town over that gets above national average results for GCSEs, worth remembering most comps have those a few of children who could walk in with virtually no work and get a handful of A*s, the secondary moderns don't have those "super bright" children, if they are getting good GCSE results, its down to good education, not just naturally gifted children. (I also know someone who used to teach at one of the boys grammers in Kent, he was called in after GCSE results and asked to 'explain' to the Head any boy getting below a B from his class - the school used to hold the view they had the brightest children so anything less than a B was a failure by their staff, seemed interesting way to run a school, I can't see a comp looking at Bs as failures, even if those children could get As with a push.)

So....a good comp should be able to do all those things! If a comp is good for the borderline bright kids and can be good for those who walk in and get A* then I just don't see the need for one lot of kids to be segregated.

I see the benefits of small schools than 12 form intakes, for setting, for pushing kids, supporting kids, but 'improve the comps' seems to be so much more of a rational solution than bringing back grammars.

"Which is not to say that I think that comps are full of "mouth breathers" and "chair throwers" etc."

No? But you are saying that your own children need to be protected from comprehensive school children....

So what are you saying about those children?

I live on a small peninsular in the NW and we have 6 grammar schools, numerous comprehensives and a few private schools.
The only reason that a previous private school converted to a partially selective academy was because of the recession and not because of the number selective state schools on the locality.

*in the locality

What happens to the non-disruptive, keen-to-learn student who is just not very clever academically? Do they not matter?
What people really want is for their dcs not to be around rough, badly behaved, low-achieving students. The escape routes for this is to either be very bright or very rich. Let's spare a thought for the many decent families who are neither.
I haven't mentioned bullying above as I find the idea that Grammar or private school children don't bully just silly.

Possibly Golden, but we've had 20 odd years of people trying to improve the comprehensive system - and the 11+ seems to produce better results overall for all children in the area.

A selective system should/needs to take in to account bright children with Dyspraxia/Dyslexia Aspergers . These kids who may struggle in certain areas, but given the right help and equipment would benefit massively from a grammar school. These are the children who perhaps need a focused disciplined environment more than bright pupils without their needs

And this ^^ is exactly why we have opted to send our 10yo DS to a small, nurturing, SEN-supportive private school when he starts Y7 next year.

We had a place at our local comprehensive for him. Local comp is a brilliant school, highly regarded, great results. But big. Around 1,500 pupils. Not a great reputation for SEN support, particularly not for kids like DS who has Aspergers/ADHD but no associated learning difficulties, is quite middle of the road academically and has no behaviour issues. By which I mean he's not going to 'stand out' as needing support or causing staff any problems but could flounder and struggle emotionally and get a bit lost in the system.

And I have read too many posts from SEN parents whose ASD children are having a really rough time in the comprehensive system with little or no support. So - the private school with small classes and SEN supportive staff it is.

Like others I find it massively offensive that people make the 'rich and thick' assumption - just as I find it massively offensive that people refer to comp children as spending half the day chucking chairs around.

DS is bright, bright enough to pass the exam to the selective independent school we had (very carefully) chosen. But probably not bright enough for many of the selective grammars. So in our case, to answer the original question, even if grammars were available in our area we would still be going down the private school route for DS1 because neither a grammar nor a huge comprehensive would really be right for him. We are very lucky that we are able to pay for what we feel is the right school. Just as other families are very lucky if they have children who are academically able and socially sophisticated enough to breeze through the state system and achieve highly without the need for any additional help.

"Possibly Golden, but we've had 20 odd years of people trying to improve the comprehensive system - and the 11+ seems to produce better results overall for all children in the area."

Show me where it produces better results for the 75%. And how do you measure the societal and psychological impact?

And it is insane to say the is not bullying or head behaviour in grammar school. insane

And meanwhile comps have got better and better...as far as I can see!

They are not, by and large, as they were a generation ago.

I am truly glad that we are not in a grammar area (and thus avoided the current tutor-fest and 'perform in the day' worry) and also have access to genuinely good comps that serve all children well in a non-leafy area. (many boys who have never lived in a family with a working male, for example).

The chances of any government actually re-introducing grammars is virtually nil, so I will continue to support our local comps.

"Like others I find it massively offensive that people make the 'rich and thick' assumption - just as I find it massively offensive that people refer to comp children as spending half the day chucking chairs....."

And which one of these assumptions is made an a daily basis on this forum- almost always unchallenged? I've lost countnof the number of people who have made it on this thread alone. But one idiotic comment about rich and thick (which was made,incidentally, in the context of abolishing private schools and all their pupils transferring to grammars- maybe rich and less able would have been more tactful) and people are on their high horses talking about hiding the thread.

And which one of these assumptions is made an a daily basis on this forum- almost always unchallenged?

That doesn't make it acceptable to make nasty comments about private school kids though does it? Or do you think it does?

Talk about de-railing.

One comment. Admitted by its author as being not the right thing to say. Posts and posts ago.

Hak

Some schools here do have children who throw tables and chairs as far as I remember there was me and another poster who mentioned this because we have experienced it.
here it is pretty widespread and no, I wouldn't want my children to attend these schools but they had to as we don't have nice leafy comps, grammar schools and private.

*Talk about de-railing.

One comment. Admitted by its author as being not the right thing to say. Posts and posts ago.*

Indeed. For this reason I haven't read the thread. And I don't doubt that no matter how many times I post about evidence of a successful grammar school system in Northern Ireland (where private schools are virtually unknown), my posts will be systematically ignored.

Ah, well. People have such strong opinions on this subject - largely because they feel it involves class - that it's frightening at times.

Think I'll stay away.