Stop trying to indoctrinate my child!

[DisappointedOne]

DD is 4 and started in the nursery class of our catchment school in Sept - it's not a church school. It's a full time place. We knew that there would be assemblies but the head assured us that they didn't follow a strict religious script, more world issues etc. We could live with that.

However, DD's teacher appears to be providing religious instruction to the children throughout the day - prayers on the morning, grace at lunchtime, hymns in the afternoon. I'm beyond furious. We want DD to have a rounded education and learn about all manner of belief and non-belief systems so that she can decide her own beliefs herself. Why the fuck is her teacher trying to indoctrinate 3 and 4 year olds to her beliefs?!

We're away this week but planning on taking this up with the head. Has anyone else tackled this sort of thing before?

'Fashionably agnostic backgrounds'

... tell another one

So, wait. You don't want the teacher to "give religious instruction" - and it's not certain she is doing this, because you're going on the word of a 4 year old here - but you also don't want to withdraw your daughter from it because you don't want her to be excluded? That's a bit special, isn't it?

So what you actually want is for them to change their entire way of doing things because you don't like something.

Nope. Life doesn't work like that.

Life does work like that though. Some schools in my area are ignorinmg the laws and becoming secular because of parents protests.
When I was at school teachers were allowed to hit kids with a leather belt.

The education system is constantly evolving and changing and I am sure that active worship in non faith schools will be stopped at some point.

I already explained that if like to ensure that everyone needs so aware of what appears to be happening (it's not just DD's actions). Other parents are either concerned, oblivious or couldn't care less.

I'd like the teacher/head/school to justify it with reasons that it's beneficial for the children. (Nobody to date has managed that here or elsewhere). I don't want to have to exclude DD and make her "different" to her peers to enable the teacher to carry out her personal mission.

mistlewoe - teaching about religion is very different from making a child practice religion.

Teaching a child that there are many different religions and how they operate is not indoctrination.

Making a child practice religion is indoctrination.

"even atheists tell their kids that"

We certainly don't! Why would we want to tell our DC such a complicated and confusing (given that we don't believe any of the other beliefs surrounding it) lie? And what about DCs whose families believe in reincarnation or other after life religious beliefs that have nothing to do with heaven, they still get told the heaven story by the person who is supposed to be educating them?

i would go in and ask for clarification about what they are doing - i suspect there is some exaggeration going on and you need to make sure you really understand.
I am an agnostic/anti religious instruction- DS who is 4 has learned hymns (well carols) at school and had been in a nativity play and to carol concerts. I am fine with this as i think its part of the culture he is living in. As he gets older I would expect them to talk about different religious beliefs and festivals etc- and also to make it clear that these are beliefs and not facts
They do pick up on others beliefs- he told me Jesus was dead and in the sky - no idea where this came from.
not sure how much they pick up on in hymns though- DS is currently signing Frere Jacques at school and he definitely doesn't understand French

I would get together with some of the other parents and form a posse!

Also contact the education board of Wales to see if this kind of evangelical instruction is allowed.

Armed with this knowledge I would ask the teacher for a meeting and tell her that it's not ok with the Welsh edu board and ever so slightly threaten her that you'll start and enquiry if she continues, and it will have a negative impact for her career etc.

Nothing like the posse putting the frighteners on.

She sounds like she's gone rogue, and needs her wings clipped. I doubt the head teacher is even aware. Keep up the pressure if nothing changes, by parent after parent going in for a chat with the head week after week, all asking about this teacher's evangelical practices, and about starting a formal enquiry.

Jemima, I think parents should be able to have an expectation that their child will not be involved in religious worship and prayer several times a day in a non faith state school. So expecting the school to change this seems to be exactly how it should work ! Parents who want all that praying have the option of a faith school.

Golden- that would be nice, but even non- faith schools have a legal requirement to "lead active worship".

Whilst I realise that you don't actually want to withdraw your child from collective worship, I agree with ivykaty that it's a very powerful (if somewhat passive aggressive) bargaining tool.

If when you've investigated, you find that religious observance really is woven into the school day as you suspect, then your approach goes something like. "I'm concerned that the statutory collective worship in DD's class is going beyond what I'm comfortable with, and I'm considering exercising my right to withdraw DD from all acts of worship including grace, hymn singing etc. Could you please inform me what that would involve, how many times she'd need to be removed from class per day, and what your supervisory plans would be?".

Once it's been put in writing it may give the Head a kick up the arse. Because even if you wouldn't be prepared to go through with it, it's quite possible that tomorrow morning a child could be placed in the school whose parents are Jewish/JW/hardline Dawkinsite, and who are absolutely not prepared to engage in any enforced Christian observance (as is their absolute legal right in a non-faith school). If exercising their right to withdraw from collective worship excluded their child from the life of the school to an unreasonable extent then presumably they would have a decent discrimination claim (IMO, but I've not heard of any cases), but more straightforwardly it would be a massive administrative headache.

Antumbra YY however it must be free from any particular political bias or belief which can be. For example, idolising certain political figures/systems and being unable to separate that from their atheism (E. g. The lack of belief coming from adherence to communism, rather than existing prior to that), or behaviours which polarise thought mocking certain religions (and not others).
I've had to speak to staff about it ... One of whom looked blankly and said "but I'm atheist".

I read an interesting piece - by an atheist, given to me by an atheist - comparing the flashy/peer - pressure methods used by Billy Graham type TV preachers to a conference Prof Dawkins spoke at. He was particularly keen on the "peer pressure" stuff, which is sad given that his point of view comes out of deep thought and science but followers buy books .
The person who gave me the article is a committed atheist and sceptic. They were disgusted by the razzmatazz and FB meme style stuff, and really do feel that it's being "sold" as a belief system to teens to feel clever etc (in the same way I suppose as religion is "sold" by the media to people so they feel morally superior) when he feels it should come from genuine deep thought and logic.
But people don't have time for deep thought and logic.

Lots of strong opinions here - it's an emotive one isn't it!
I don't think you are being unreasonable. But I would have a look at the curriculum and RE policies of the school first and foremost to check what should be happening.
We withdrew ours from religious assemblies and it didn't serve to isolate at all. In fact, more parents took the same approach after we did it. There are very few people who will actually approach issues like this but it doesn't mean that no one else is concerned about it.
Best start with a conversation with the teacher themselves and be direct. In the UK we allegedly respect all religious/spiritual views.
It's a normal thing.
Best of luck lovely

Yup, atheism makes you 'feel clever' because it is cleverer than superstition.
And Mistlewoe - do you live somewhere sixfingered very mono-cultural? Children brought up by Muslim/Hindu/Sikh/Jewish parents are not necessarily going to be aware of more than the broad basics of Christian mythology and maybe not even those.
Mind you, when it comes to reference points for understanding classical art/literature etc, you need to know your ancient Greek and Roman mythology as well - and to fully understand British culture you need a bit of Norse and Celtic mythology as well. I have no problem with mythologies of any kind being taught about: some of them are good stories as well as informing kids of how different people view the world, but there's no actual difference between stories of Odysseus, Loki, Apollo, Freya and stories of Jesus or Mohammed.

Solid that wasn't quite my point. I was referring to how it is possible to appear to engage in any belief/non-belief system without thinking to fit in and feel good.
There are some people who claim atheism without much depth of thought, or because "everyone does it" in their peer group, just as there are people who claim to be of certain faiths because it makes them feel they "fit in". The person who was frustrated with this, as I mentioned, is has been an atheist all their life. They find the "I am an atheist therefore win any logical argument in my own mind without applying thought" attitude of some people rather akin to the type of person who claims a religion to judge others and feel superior. He was not talking about all atheists and neither was I - that was clear from my post. He finds it frustrating because these cases are usually people who are big with Facebook memes and sound bites, whereas he is very serious about philosophy and science.

Can we not make this about which religious positions are logically tenable, and how much people have logically examined their beliefs, and stick to whether OP IBU to want to send her child to her local state school without having to worry about her receiving religious instruction?

Not to be thread police it's just that it's such a massive subject anyway and it would be a shame for it just to turn into another "is Dawkins a prat" discussion.

SolidGoldBrass: I usually agree with your pov but the six fingered comment was out of order, and the dirt of comment which was causing distress to a poster who was here recently trying to decide whether her child should have an op to remove an extra digit.

Sort of comment, not 'dirt'

He is most pedantic about things like "my beliefs are more logical" vs "I am cleverer than you".
I think his ire may come from over exposure to young, well off university students (often "alpha male" wannabes due to the course/career) who often bat about these soundbites with earnestness/arrogance.
He's one of those "long debates with priests and scientists alike" types who probes into the logic of any statement utterly infuriating even those he agrees with.

I'm with FatCunt (though it seems incredibly rude to call you that - I feel I should be apologising). This is an interesting and quite specific situation - surely we can play "god botherers are stupid"/"militant atheists are emotionally deficient" bingo elsewhere.

I stick by my learning about beliefs/non-beliefs and what morals tend to be universal = great, praying to one god = not appropriate.

I'm amazed there has been even one 'is Dawkins a prat?' discussion, what is there to discuss about that? I don't even know any atheists who'd argue he's anything other than a prat. However I think you are right FatCunt that isn't the issue here.

What are you really worried about, OP?

Christian values are a good thing.

jemimapuddleduck: "So what you actually want is for them to change their entire way of doing things because you don't like something.

Nope. Life doesn't work like that."

On the contrary, life does work like that. Schools are supposed to follow particular rules about what they teach children. Introducing frequent religious worship into a school that isn't a faith school is certainly not something the teacher should be doing. Parents who pay their taxes have a reasonable expectation that the school will conform to certain standards of behaviour.

And of course, you'd be the first to squeal like a stuck pig if the teacher started telling your kids that Christianity was a fairytale or making them pray to Krishna. Funny how quick people like you are to impose your beliefs on other people but can't stand it when the boot is on the other foot.