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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Stop trying to indoctrinate my child!

162 replies

DisappointedOne · 15/03/2015 22:59

DD is 4 and started in the nursery class of our catchment school in Sept - it's not a church school. It's a full time place. We knew that there would be assemblies but the head assured us that they didn't follow a strict religious script, more world issues etc. We could live with that.

However, DD's teacher appears to be providing religious instruction to the children throughout the day - prayers on the morning, grace at lunchtime, hymns in the afternoon. I'm beyond furious. We want DD to have a rounded education and learn about all manner of belief and non-belief systems so that she can decide her own beliefs herself. Why the fuck is her teacher trying to indoctrinate 3 and 4 year olds to her beliefs?!

We're away this week but planning on taking this up with the head. Has anyone else tackled this sort of thing before?

OP posts:
Original poster
DisappointedOne · 16/03/2015 05:05

"TBH, I would just leave it. It's nursery - when she goes to school they won't say Grace and such like. You don't say it at home, so she won't even remember that it's a thing in a year or two."

The nursery is part of the school. The teacher is the head of the foundation phase (nursery - year 2) so has influence beyond nursery. (I don't know about other teachers' beliefs/practices either.)

OP posts:
goodnessgraciousgouda · 16/03/2015 05:10

Op why can't you just make an appointment with the head and ask why a non religious school is having such regular religious events throughout the,day? Explain you understand hymns during assembly,or,whatnot, but that you are very unhappy,with the,prayers at meal times, and all the other,things. Ask to see,a,copy of their re curriculum. Ask why this,always seems to come back to the same teacher.

you need to be assertive and calm but not crazy and aggressive. Prayers and hymns might be inappropriate, but to call them indoctrination is a bit bat shit crazy.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 16/03/2015 06:29

What's the point of doing it if not to indoctrinate?

OP posts:
Booboostoo · 16/03/2015 06:42

I'm with you OP, totally unacceptable.

I find it very disturbing that the focus in teaching religion is all on the procedural, prayers, hymns, etc. I would not have a problem with the school teaching my DCs to be kind, charitable, fair, etc. but do find it indoctrinating to make all children go through the procedural elements of one particular religion. Imagine if a school got all children to pull out the prayer mat and face Mecca three times a day! The anti-terrorist squad would be there is a blink of an eye.

Carambar · 16/03/2015 06:48

This reply has been deleted

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CookieWarbler · 16/03/2015 07:01

I'm with you. This teacher has her own agenda and you absolutely must raise it. At best it's excessive acts of worship which you're rightly not comfortable with but at worst it could be an evangelical nutcase trying to 'recruit'.

I'm sure some of you will say that 'recruit' is far fetched however this situation reminds me of something that's happened recently at my DP's DD's school. Turns out three members of staff are part of a crazy evangelical cult group whose own website trumpets their mission to convert. Various assemblies set up inviting speakers in to talk about 'bullying' which actually turned out to be 'muslim and gays are evil' talk. ShockAngry

I doubt your teacher is more than your common or garden enthusiastic Christian but you need to find out!

Heckler · 16/03/2015 07:15

I would absolutely raise this, in a "do you know this is happening?" way.

Treaclepot · 16/03/2015 07:15

Would those saying YABU be happy if the the teacher were making your child say twice a day something like

'there is no god, religion is not true? '

Or 'Mohammed is the true prophet'

Or something else that you do not even slightly believe would you mind?

ILovePud · 16/03/2015 07:18

Yes I'd say raise it with the head, you were told one thing about the religious character of the teaching and then have got something very different, it's ridiculous to say in those circumstances that the onus on you should be to move. Personally I don't think religion belongs in state schools but it's so enmeshed in the system that I can't see it changing any time soon. My DC go to a church school (there were no places in any non church school for miles around) and it's been ok, they haven't been indoctrinated, they enjoy the teaching on Christanity and view it in the same way as learning about the ancient Roman or Egyptian Gods. They don't learn much about other religions but we try to talk more about different belief systems at home.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 16/03/2015 07:37

"How do you know this is going on?"

It's not us teaching her the songs (complete with closed eyes, clasped hands and thoughtful expression). At 4 she's too young to understand the concept of God etc never mind the fact that it's in a language she's still learning. She trusts what her teacher tells her. If she says its August not March the children wouldn't question it. If they tell her dead people/animals go to heaven she'll believe it (and we'll have to undo that at home). Songs are great to teach language - why does it need to be religious ones? I'm all for them showing gratitude for their "food" (don't go there) but why to a particular deity? Why not to the farmers/nature/the school cook?

OP posts:
Original poster
DisappointedOne · 16/03/2015 07:41

Oh, and when asked DD will tell us exactly why point of the day these things are done and what her teacher says.

OP posts:
hippoinamudhole · 16/03/2015 07:45

Two of my children spent a year with a teacher who said grace and prayers at the end of the day, neither remember doing it now.

Both of them joined the scout movement before they changed the promise to accommodate atheists and neither believe in God. I do.

Your daughter will make up her own mind in due course.

mummytime · 16/03/2015 08:03

If what you are saying truly happens (and it is very hard to be sure on the word of a 4 year old - my DC have all said things that were gross distortions of the facts at that age) - then regardless of a faith school or a "secular" one I would want to discuss first with the teacher and then with the Head. And I am a Christian who sent my DC to a C of E school.
What happened there was nothing like you have described (and they wouldn't have presented RE as just learning about World issues).

So YANBU - but YABU if you haven't spoken to the school and made sure that the facts haven't been misconstrued.

My youngest came home from school wanting to be Jewish, for the food. DS quite liked Islam for the basketball courts (at our local Mosque).

however · 16/03/2015 08:06

I agree with Fat Cunt.

Although I'm sure she's neither.

ivykaty44 · 16/03/2015 08:22

Go and look on the humanist webpages and you should find information on how to extract your DC from the religious worship through the day. The school have to oblige with these requests.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 16/03/2015 08:35

For the umpteenth time, I don't want to exclude DD! That is likely to do her significant harm!

OP posts:
GoldenBeagle · 16/03/2015 08:42

YANBU. It is presumptuous and inappropriate to involve children in religious worship as a routine part of the school day in a state community school.

However, if you are happy with the school apart from this, and your dd is happy, I would not go in all guns blazing and threatening to withdraw her. See the Head and explain that you are surprised at the level of religious worship and you do not find it appropriate or acceptable. Ask what the school policy and practice is on meeting the National Curriculum and ask why they are going so much further? Point out the detrimental effects of withdrawing a child at several points in the school day.

My advice would be to pull back from being 'beyond furious' and accusing them of indoctrination and make your (good) point calmly.

Then write to your MP. This religious worship stuff in schools is government driven, and is, in my opinion, anachronistic, anti-democratic and a misuse of power across state and church. But in your case it is probably a kindly old-fashioned teacher doing what she knows kids enjoy as a ritual to settle them before class and lunch etc.

GoldenBeagle · 16/03/2015 08:43

OP- you have posted in AIBU....don't expect a reasonable debate here Wink

ivykaty44 · 16/03/2015 08:43

For the umpteenth time schools are required yo have assembly

As for the other prays etc through the day do you really think the school are going to have the staff to take your DC out each time this happens and therefore given a choice what do you think the school will do if you force their hand...?

GoldenBeagle · 16/03/2015 08:49

As for the religious assembly - my DC have between them been to 2 'Outstanding' schools and don't have an assembly every day, never mind any collective worship. They have never been involved in any actual worship at any school. Schools do seem to be able to deploy common sense.

But in this case Ivykaty may well be right - they will give it up rather than have to organise extra supervision for a child not in the classroom while the praying goes on!

TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge · 16/03/2015 08:53

Why would you have to undo her being told people go to heaven when they die? Even atheists tell little kids that!

tiggytape · 16/03/2015 09:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

antumbra · 16/03/2015 09:11

"Even atheists tell little kids that!

CRAP.

squizita · 16/03/2015 09:12

Tiggy schools can also apply for it to be "spiritual" in nature (ie either covering world religions or be of a universal/inclusive nature) if the school is highly diverse.
Doing this to the standards expected for a SACRE audit is really hard though - our school has a team dedicated to it. I would think therefore that if the school were not as diverse as tge one in which I work, it would not be seen as an efficient /value for money use of resources. Which is disappointing. Sad

My school is a large comprehensive in London. I was on the SMSC management team before my maternity leave ... through a SACRE audit and OFSTED. Both outstanding.

Personally I think world beliefs, including atheism and humanism, should be included in every school's spiritual reflection time.

squizita · 16/03/2015 09:17

In the context of atheism spiritual reflection might be thinking about how wonderful and unique human life is in the universe and how we can behave/use resources to help everyone live a safe/happy life.
Also the "ripples after death" thing - what is a person's legacy?