Stop trying to indoctrinate my child!

[DisappointedOne]

DD is 4 and started in the nursery class of our catchment school in Sept - it's not a church school. It's a full time place. We knew that there would be assemblies but the head assured us that they didn't follow a strict religious script, more world issues etc. We could live with that.

However, DD's teacher appears to be providing religious instruction to the children throughout the day - prayers on the morning, grace at lunchtime, hymns in the afternoon. I'm beyond furious. We want DD to have a rounded education and learn about all manner of belief and non-belief systems so that she can decide her own beliefs herself. Why the fuck is her teacher trying to indoctrinate 3 and 4 year olds to her beliefs?!

We're away this week but planning on taking this up with the head. Has anyone else tackled this sort of thing before?

But Tiggy - the OP is asking about religious worship throughout the school day, several times a day. Is there any guidance for schools in that?

"Why would you have to undo her being told people go to heaven when they die? Even atheists tell little kids that!". SOME atheists might, but actually the body and life as a material process and not offering heaven as some sort of afterlife is one of the key things for many atheists. I have never ever told my children about heaven. I said once a body was dead we were dead and that was that but that when I am dead they will always carry in their hearts that I loved them.

Gosh get a grip. It's not like your child will turn into Jesus over night . There's nothing wrong with being thankful for your food...thankful for the nice things you have. We were taught these things at primary and I didn't turn into a Christian....what's wrong with people nowadays nitpicking on everything. Honestly.

OP, you are absolutely right and you should not stand for this. I'm completely sure that the people telling you to "get a grip" would not be happy about having their children indoctrinated in something they didn't believe in.

Last week's Daily Mail had a story about a girl from a Christian family who didn't get a place in the oversubscribed school and was instead offered a place at a Sikh secondary. The mother was horrified.

I can pretty much guarantee that if all the people on here telling you that it doesn't matter and is of no consequence that your child is being indoctrinated would be on Mumsnet in no time bleating and whining if their child was forced to go to a Sikh school or a Muslim school or a school where they were told every day that God didn't exist (of course explicitly atheist schools aren't allowed, but if they did, we can take it as a given that many people wouldn't be happy about sending their kids there).

We are atheists and haven't told our DS lies about heaven. It makes no sense and we don't believe in it, why would we tell him?

Exactly tiggy ... I think it's a great model. It doesn't indoctrinate but equally answers questions. In feedback, children focus on "universal" qualities they notice throughout all the beliefs - kindness, honesty etc.
I wish the government would make it easier!

FWIW I'm Christian, however I don't think children should have ideas just "thrust" onto them. I'd prefer it if they experienced and discussed a range of beliefs, and decided for themselves (and importantly respected the dear held beliefs of others too, not viewing anyone as weird or "bad").

remember what the Jesuits say about under-sevens; small children are biologically programmed to be vulnerable to indoctrination.

trouble is that there are no secular schools in the UK and sky-fairy sessions of some sort are compulsory. But NOT three times a day.

all hail Monty Python and 'all things dull and ugly'. No arguing with that one.

OP, YANBU. But i agree with making the point calmly.

Im an atheist, i dont tell my dc that people to heaven. I tell them that when people die the things that made them who they are are gone, their memories, their favourite food etc is all kept in their brain and once you die that doesnt work any more. I tell them that peoples bodies are buried or burned and that lets the building blocks that made their body come apart so they can make new things, like trees and butterflies and sheep. And then i talk about what people leave behind, how people remember them, how their favourite things will be given to family and friends, how any work they did will stay around, so even though they are gone, the made a real difference to the world.
And my dc are only 3 and 5, and are fine with this. Why would i tell them about heaven when i can tell them the truth, which is much simpler than telling them theres a magical city in the sky?

The sooner religious worship is abolished in all state funded schools the better . Why is tax payers money supporting worship of any description?

Education ABOUT belief is fine , and IMO. beneficial , but school
time is not for worshipping gods.

It's also generally true that the keener a Christian is to impose his/her delusions on other people (and particularly on other people's children) the more likely those delusions are to be to the poisonous end of the scale. Generally, Christians who have concerned themselves with the 'being kind to other people' side of Christianity are less pushy about it. The ones who make a big deal of it generally have a lot of enthusiasm for the racist/misogynistic/homophobic/unbeliever-bashing aspects of their myths.

OP, I'll PM you. Your child does NOT have to endure prayers etc in school, not in Ysgol Cymraeg or English-medium schools either unless it's a church school.

will PM now

My kids to endure prayers- I am not sure how you can say that there is a satisfactory way of avoiding that.

my child does not attend assembly and the teacher doesn't pray around him, nor make a big deal out of it.
He may be taught about all religions, but not told "this way is the right way" about any. Nor asked to sit in the same room while the class prays or sings hymns to practice for assembly.
The school is obliged to provide him with things to do and supervision in that time, rather than doing what I've heard some try to get away with and sticking him on one of the isolation desks in the hallway.

not sure what is unsatisfactory about that.

Taking a child out is assembly is not satisfatory.

Assembly is an important school community event, where triumphs are shared, information disseminated, achievements celebrated.
My children have enjoyed having their efforts recognised by the school, certificates given and birthdays celebrated.
Having my kids miss that is far from satisfactory.

Your kids are luck that they don't have a religious teacher- our head was very evangelical and much of the teaching staff were too.
My DD was convinced that the story of Noah's ark was a real history lesson.

I wasn't going into the details as they are specific to his school and thus not really relevent in this discussion. His school do a special assembly which is basically all the achievements, announcements etc for the week on a Friday, which he attends (as detailed in the agreement between me and the school) and then leaves before the semi-religious content at the end.

In the context you are describing, antumbra, where they were teaching hebrew mythology as fact; he would be withdrawn from that school. One of the few things his father and I agree on wholeheartedly is that the children should not be indoctrinated into any religion.

Very difficult to withdraw. Living in a remote rural area we have no choice of school, unless we want a 50 mile round trip twice a day.

Would it be worth volunteering as a 'parent helper' for a morning or afternoon, so you can find out for yourself exactly what's going on?

yeah, that is a problem! You do have the legal right to not have them forced into these things though how you enforce that with a teacher who's so blinkered I can't imagine.

I'd have homeschooled him rather than putting up with that, but I know it's not an option for everyone.

taxi4ballet- I did that for years, I also sat on the board of governors for a number of years. Which is why I have quite an insight into the level of indoctrination.

The head would not budge. He stated he was merely carrying out a legal requirement and the interpretation of " active worship" was his to determine.
Thankfully my kids are now at secondary school.

"Would it be worth volunteering as a 'parent helper' for a morning or afternoon, so you can find out for yourself exactly what's going on?"

And that's exactly why a lot of schools do not allow parent "helpers" into class - particularly their own child's class. Too many instances of "spying" (and gossip), which is kind of what is being suggested here.

This drives me crazy as well OP. I am catholic(sort of) and my dd attend a catholic primary school. However a local non church school deliver education in a very evangelist manner and I would not want my dd under that influence. I chose the school I did because that particular school fits well with my beliefs. I feel strongly that non church schools should be free from worship and they certainly should be more transparant . It doesn't feel like parents have much choice especially in small/rural areas. I am surprised that it isn't challenged frequently under The Human Rights Convention.

Absolutely agree with you, OP. They're so receptive at that age, particularly when it's coming from a teacher, someone who's words have added weight. We tell our kids to listen to and learn from their teachers, and then they go and use their influence to spread their personal agendas. It's an abuse of their situation.
I'd be raising it with the school in a non-confrontational (at least to start with) manner, and in the meantime, having some conversations with the little one, explaining that that's just one idea about how the world works, but nobody knows for sure. Take the opportunity to encourage that critical thinking, rather than removing her. They might start asking some difficult questions

I always wonder how teaching a religion is perceived as indoctrination but teaching a child that no religion has precedence or that atheism/agnosticism is a valid choice is seen as 'non interference'.

We are not church goers at all but we do Bible stories etc at home as I think that kids who don't have a background knowledge of Christianlty will struggle with understanding poetry, art and literature. I am a secondary school teacher and have regularly had to 'fill in the gaps' of children from fashionably agnostic backgrounds.

mistlewoe- you can't "indoctrinate" atheism. Atheism is a lack of faith and has no doctrine.