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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Stop trying to indoctrinate my child!

162 replies

DisappointedOne · 15/03/2015 22:59

DD is 4 and started in the nursery class of our catchment school in Sept - it's not a church school. It's a full time place. We knew that there would be assemblies but the head assured us that they didn't follow a strict religious script, more world issues etc. We could live with that.

However, DD's teacher appears to be providing religious instruction to the children throughout the day - prayers on the morning, grace at lunchtime, hymns in the afternoon. I'm beyond furious. We want DD to have a rounded education and learn about all manner of belief and non-belief systems so that she can decide her own beliefs herself. Why the fuck is her teacher trying to indoctrinate 3 and 4 year olds to her beliefs?!

We're away this week but planning on taking this up with the head. Has anyone else tackled this sort of thing before?

OP posts:
Original poster
DisappointedOne · 15/03/2015 23:15

yes, it's Welsh medium.

OP posts:
Mitlillehus · 15/03/2015 23:17

Indoctrinate is a strong word.

I hear you that religion isn't what you signed up for, but saying thank you for the food we eat and singing a bit of church music is not "indoctrination".

If you go in there, just ask the teacher very casually what she teaches.

I am in holy catholic ireland as it's sometimes called and the teacher explained to the children (12) that what the bible said about homosexuality was written by men with limited education in less enlightened more judgemental times. So, just get a vibe for the teacher and where she's at before you go in all guns blazing.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 15/03/2015 23:21

She once said to me that she took her children to church as it means they have "moral people" around them.

My child singing a song she doesn't truly understand, on repeat, with hands together and eyes closed disturbs me. I suspect the teacher would have words with me if I taught her "Smack my bitch up" or some other such tune. How is this different?!

OP posts:
AliceMcGee · 15/03/2015 23:22

the law of the land is that schools have a daily act of worship of a broadly Christian nature.if don't like it then you are within your rights to withdraw her from worship

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 15/03/2015 23:23

She asked whether DD was okay to mention Mary and Joseph in the xmas concert. I said it was fine as long as it was presented as a story and not fact. They made stables and baby jesuses out of salt dough. Fine. But children learn strongly through songs which is why I object to these.

OP posts:
Original poster
DisappointedOne · 15/03/2015 23:24

A daily act. Not several daily acts, which take place in the classroom away from parents and the head.

OP posts:
LaurieFairyCake · 15/03/2015 23:28

I think 'smack my bitch up' contains less
appropriate language than 'Silent Night' so that will be the difference for me Grin

I suggest that while going into school is fine and I agree with your basic point entirely you should probably modify your language so as not to look like a tinfoil hat wearing loon.

As the rest of the world thinks 'smack my bitch up' isn't the same as 'all things bright and beautiful' etc.

OstentatiousBreastfeeder · 15/03/2015 23:32

Withdrawing your child isolates them and makes them feel different. They're missing out on what they view as fun singing with their friends - nobody wants that for their children. So you have to decide what matters to you more.

I think it's pretty shit that parents are backed into a corner this way. Not many children, or their families identify as practicing Christians these days, far more likely to have more children of other faiths in a classroom than there are Christians - yet it's those of different faiths who get taken out with a TA.

Mitlillehus · 15/03/2015 23:33

Totally agree with lauriefairycake.

You are not being unreasonable in what you expect from the school but modify your language yes.

Comparing a hymn to 'smack my bitch up' raises a smile on mumsnet but they'll think "wow, there's no crazy like a strident athiest!"
Not that it matters but if you do end up resolving your differences you don't want the school to write you off as aggressive in the first year.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 15/03/2015 23:35

"All things bright and beautiful" is extremely offensive if you don't believe that "the lord god made them all". (I wouldn't really teach her "smack my bitch up" btw!

OP posts:
LaurieFairyCake · 15/03/2015 23:38

It's not offensive - save that word for real shit.

Offensive is ISIS or Mugabe. It's something you disagree with.

Say you don't want your child to be part of the worship in the school - but think carefully before you do as children mostly hate being seen to be different.

If you honestly think it's different than the act of worship allowed in law then complain.

I think that church and state should be separate btw.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 15/03/2015 23:41

The whole point is that I don't want DD excluded for chunks of the day. That won't benefit her. I want a justification for it (not that there is one to my mind). As I say, I don't think even the head is fully aware of it.

OP posts:
FatCunt · 15/03/2015 23:42

I think to be fair to OP, OPs in this situation are often quite shocked and perhaps intemperate, as it's more or less the first time they'll have come across blatant state-sponsored religious discrimination, and it comes as a real jolt and an affront to someone who's never really had to worry about that kind of thing before.

LaurieFairyCake · 15/03/2015 23:45

The justification is the daily act of worship (which often takes the form of an assembly, song or prayer) prescribed in all state schools.

If it's more than that then yes you want to make senior leadership aware - but in a 'do you know that this is going on' way rather than with a pentagram carved in your head while shaking smudging sticks at her and looking nuts.'Grin

BertieBotts · 15/03/2015 23:45

TBH, I would just leave it. It's nursery - when she goes to school they won't say Grace and such like. You don't say it at home, so she won't even remember that it's a thing in a year or two.

I think you are worrying over nothing. It's not ideal but it's also not a massive deal. You can just tell her yourself that God, Mary and Joseph etc are all stories. It's not like they are allowed to teach creationism in science lessons.

SolidGoldBrass · 15/03/2015 23:50

It's excessive in a non-church school, certainly. And it does sound like a teacher who is over-stepping the mark because she's daft enough to believe all that crap herself.
Are there any other families who you know are definitely not Christian, who might also object (not just rational ones but people who follow a different mythology eg Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc)? If several parents complain, the head might take more notice.

christinarossetti · 15/03/2015 23:56

FatCunt's hit the nail on the head for me in this thread.

Saying Grace before meals and saying prayers are explicit acts of worship. A "daily act of worship of a broadly Christian nature" means talking about treating each other as you would want to be treated yourself or the like in assembly.

Sounds like the teacher has her own agenda, which she shouldn't be using the classroom to promote.

I would agree that talking to SLT in a 'did you know this is going on? I'm not really comfortable with it" sort of way is the way forward.

Frecklefeatures · 15/03/2015 23:57

I'm in Scotland, we don't have to have a 'daily act of worship', just RME covering all religions, so it can't be law everywhere. We also have occasional church services/worship assemblies which non - Christians don't attend. It seems a bit full - on for a state school at nursery level.

LaurieFairyCake · 16/03/2015 00:01

The education reform act doesn't apply to Scotland, only England and Wales

LaurieFairyCake · 16/03/2015 00:02

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/281929/Collective_worship_in_schools.pdf

Link here in case anyone wants to read a very dull 63 page document

MoominKoalaAndMiniMoom · 16/03/2015 00:07

I thought it'd be in Wales.

OP I went to primary school in very rural north Wales. A state school, non church, supposedly non religious.

We said prayers three times a day, more if there was assembly. We were punished if.we didnt join in prayer, punished if we voiced views other than Christian, all we did in RE was Christianity and everything linked to Jesus.

From what I've heard, in many areas of wales its nigh on impossible to find a school that doesn't indoctrinate children in this way.

schokolade · 16/03/2015 00:43

Teach her "all things dull and ugly" too Wink

IneedAdinosaurNickname · 16/03/2015 01:13

Ds 2 is 8 1/2 and has been at a CofE nursery and then school since he was 3. Plus he attends church with me most weeks. He's an atheist. I don't believe children can be indoctrinated as easily as people think.

Although that said I don't think their school teach Christianity as fact and I've always made it clear it's a belief not fact and not everyone believes.

LulaMayBrown · 16/03/2015 01:58

Can I reassure you about indoctrination?

I went to a CofE school. Prayers, hymns, church twice a week, the lot.

I was a complete atheist from day 1. Didn't believe a word of it. But I grew to love the songs and the stories and enjoyed reciting the 'poems' (prayers). I regret that my own kids are being raised in a country which is entirely secular as they won't know any of this unless I take them to church (which I won't as child2 has sports on sunday am.)

So yes, you can raise this with the school, but also have faith in yourself that your influence will be much stronger. And it will also be your DDs choice about what she wants to accept.

TheAnalyst · 16/03/2015 03:59

YANBU. If it's not the school's policy to be out-and-out religious then this teacher should not be sneaking it in under the radar. Ask to see the RE curriculum.

We are a secular Jewish family and if I found out secret Christian stuff was happening to my kids in a school that identifies as non-religious I would be a bit miffed.