Refusal to discuss formula feeding at parentcraft class

[obeliaboo]

AIBU? Ready for the fire!
I've been told that in order for me to have a tour of my chosen hospital's delivery suite, that i need to attend 'parentcraft' classes.
Yesterday was exclusively about breastfeeding, fair enough, didnt know that of course until we got there.
So, as the midwife goes on about breastfeeding and support, I enquire what is the support for those who fall into small percentage of mums who cannot breastfeed. Simple question.
"What do you mean?".
I had to ask again, and put it across that i intend to breastfeed, but what if i cant, what if my milk doesn't come in. It happens, it happened to my eldest sister, its nothing to be ashamed of so whats the harm in asking and what is the support in that situation.
"We don't discuss artificial feeding".
Seriously?? I understand the necessity to promote breastfeeding is a priority for the NHS, because it seriously needs normalising, but to just object to even touching on the subject of formula feeding really riled me. I felt like i was at a propaganda session! She instead continued to address breastfeeding and a specific brand of electric breast bump at a specifc well known retailer.
Is this what the NHS supports? Big business's and there overpriced products (the specific one mentioned was over £100, I am not in a position to be able to afford something like that for a start), under the guise that 'breast is best', its the best start for baby - and insinuating that formula is the devil when for some poor souls, it is the only option?
AIBU for finding this absolutely snotty and condescending? There are mums out there who are underconfident, or genuinely don't lactate, mums who have gone through breastcancer and mastectomies etc, so why are these midwives refusing to even consider discussing both options.
Why make it militant and harder for those who simply can't, to speak up without feeling ashamed?
FYI this is the 3rd midwife i've had ranting at me over this.

Bombadi: after reading through this, i almost feel someone needs to set up an organisation to fill this niche the NHS may or may not (people are firmly stating both to be true) support and educate FF families.

I never attended parenting classes before I had my babies, and I believe you will find that there is support there if you need it. I had plenty of support with my first who was formula fed, the midwife visited several times, and then I was handed over to a very nice health visitor who was visiting regularly for a long time.

In the very early days, I was re-hospitalised as got extremely ill, and I was there without my baby on a surgical ward, off my head on medications and unable to breast feed, and I still got support from a breastfeeding counsellor, because I needed to be shown how to deal with milk coming in etc. She talked to me a bit about bottles too, to put my mind at ease about my son at home with his dad.

In fact I ended up with plenty of support, as I had PND, there was counselling arranged, a group to learn about PND and support others, a place in a baby massage group arranged, a HomeStart referral (I still hear from them now and my children are nine years old and six years old, we still do the Christmas parties and free trips), family support workers from the children's centre (also still friendly with), and that's just what I can recall right now.

There's no lack of support if you ask for it, honestly.

My second was exclusively breast fed (no bottles, whimper, no dummies!) and the only different was that I attended a breast feeding support group as well as all that support.

I am discussing this a lot with my mum, as she is retraining from mental health to health visiting, and she's learning a lot of stuff about babies and development. She calls me all the time to apologise for getting XYZ wrong when we were little, and I tell her it's silly to worry about stuff, she did the best she could with the knowledge she had.

I do think they should discuss making up bottles as a part of parent craft, but even if they don't, I think you'll be well set with all the other support there.

as an aside-
Can you see the irony in your comment "is this what the NHS supports, big business and their overpriced products" about a breast pump? Have you any inkling of the damage and deaths wreaked in the developing world by the aggressive tactics of formula companies?

I think covering ff in the classes would probably cost the NHS less in the long run.

We ended up back in hospital because my dd lost such a lot of weight through my insistence on continuing down the (for me) unsuccessful route of BF.

I persevered with it to the detriment of her health and well being. Yep I really bought into the message promoted by the NHS in those 'classes' because I thought that the insufficient amount she was getting from me must still be better than ff; but that was wrong. I know that looking at it rationally years later now she's grown and strong and ok, but I was fraught and exhausted. I had no experience of babies and I was set onto the BF path at any cost and because I trusted the message Id been given again and again by professionals. And when I couldn't conform to it, they and their advice were nowhere to be found.

What should be promoted is what is best for a baby and the mother, taking in to consideration the individual circumstances FOR THEM. Feeding babies as I now know, is a bespoke matter. Not everyone is the the same and no-one should be made to feel that whatever they do is an inferior or wrong option. I resisted ff because it was presented by professionals as not just inferior but not even open for discussion. That seems a rather unwise position to promote.

Wouldn't Mums who can't lactate get the same support as any new mother from the community midwife and then health visitor? Or does that not happen anymore? These people aren't in the business of watching babies starve, and if they're putting enough energy into supporting breastfeeding, then they'll be able to see when someone can't lactate.

One thing I'd like to know is how come there isn't some kind of hormonal intervention that they can do to help women whose milk doesn't come in. They've got synthetic hormones for every other area of reproduction, why not the one that could make breast feeding easier for women who need it.

The issue with asking family and friends for help is that you often end up with the "it did mine no harm" type of advice.

And things change. The "proper" way of making formula now is different (I'm sure) to when my 12-year-old twins were tinies.

In my experience (2 breastfed babies, 2 bottle) breastfeeding is far less complicated than formula feeding - you latch them on and away you go. The fact that's my experience doesn't mean there should be no help to BF'ing mothers. Because some people find FF'ing easy doesn't mean it shouldn't discussed either.

Just because breast is best for most doesn't mean those that can't, for whatever reason, should be left to flounder in the aisles at fucking Tesco without any help whatsoever.

My NCT didn't discuss FF, they basically told us that if we put our mind to it we would breast feed. Well I couldn't, and due to all the stress of it and no one taking me seriously and me thinking I had to keep trying my dd lost 1lb in 5 days, she was starving and there was no support anywhere (was in post natal ward for these 5 days)

Breast feeding is bloody amazing if you can, but there should be help for those who can't and it does not make you a failure and even to this day I get so upset when I see threads like this because if it wasn't for those sort of comments I wouldn't have felt so useless and would have given her a bloody bottle!

Just do your own reasearch before and know that if you can't breastfeed, your babies not going to bond with you any less and it does not make you a bad person.

Also just have some back up just incase (steriliser, bottles, box of formula) have a look into which formula you'd like to use and just look at how to work everything.

Btw this may sound like I'm bashing bf and I am not at all, I would have loved to but sometimes it's not possible and it doesn't make you any less of an able mother.

Roseatto: some of those problems were caused by the impossibility of reading the labels not written in their language, or of meeting sterilisation and refrigeration standards given the usual fuel and clean water issues in such places. There were also problems with families super diluting formula to feed older siblings too, who would have BF along with the baby otherwise. Or simply to make up for a lack of food. I agree that formula should not be pushed there, but not because formula is inherently bad, but rather because it requires reliable modern resources and for the rest of the family to have food security too. Chucking formula at a mother in those circumstances is doomed.

Momagain1 - I've told them so many times (my local head of infant feeding) what I think is wrong, but they do not listen.

They are constantly looking at incentives to get women to Breastfeed in the first place, such as spa vouchers and goody bags. I told them I thought it was patronising, so they don't involve me anymore with that.

I got a telling off too, for helping a new mum who wanted to express only.

I support on a voluntary basis, and I'm beginning to hate doing it. Yes it's rewarding helping somebody with a bad latch, and when it's done right seeing an almost instant relief. But there is so much more to it than that.

It is simple really, all a baby needs is love, nourishment and security.

I am a staunch bf advocate, however I do feel that all different ways that a baby can get nourishment should be discussed in a parent craft group. Empowerment to make the right decision for all involved (baby and parents) should be the aim of such groups. An empowered parent is a happier and relaxed parent.....generally good therefore for the baby. Questions should be encouraged.

The crux of it all is that newborn babies are demanding. That you are not always in control. You might not get the birth you thought you'd have, or a baby that feeds without problems.

I'm not saying be pessimistic, but simply being told that you'll have someone there to help and support you regardless of what parenthood throws at you, may make women feel more at ease.

No Ptolomy because midwives and HVs don't have the time. Feeding support post-nasally is generally pretty shit regardless of feeding method.

And as for the instructions on the box being all you need to know, that's rubbush. Dd never had as much formula or a few feeds as the instructions would suggest. Fortunately I read MN and knew demand feeding was better so didn't stuck rigidly to 5 feeds a day when actually she wanted 7.

The NHS isn't supporting women at all. The tick the box mentality does us a disservice.

How does someone erroneously prepare formula?

I love how the exact same people who spend all their time going on about how evil formula companies are, are the exact same people who believe that FFers should get all their advice on feeding from those exact same companies.

Look--you know how formula companies aren't exactly the nicest or most trustworthy of organizations? Well, most FFers are also aware of this fact, which is why they are wary of the advice written on the sides of the cartons and tins.

FFers need objective, evidence-based advice on what type of water to use and what temperature, differences between diff. types of formula and how to decide if your baby needs to switch, how to "pace" bottle feeding, how to make sure you are not over or under feeding, how to know what to switch to a different "flow" teat, whether there are any advantages to continuing formula after 1 year, how to ensure feeding safety when you have to travel somewhere where you are not 100% sure of the water or hygiene etc. etc.

By the way, Bottle Babies and the Fearless Formula Feeder (both have blogs and Facebook pages) are great sources of advice for women who want to or need to FF.

www.facebook.com/FearlessFormulaFeeder?fref=ts
www.facebook.com/bottlebabies?fref=ts

Purdie--you really don't get it, do you? Do you know that there have been bases of babies developing dehydration because their mothers did not know that you put the water in first not the formula, and this was causing their measurements to be "off"? Other parents have been known to do things like give liquid concentrate "neat," or think that they can substitute cow's milk or soya milk.

OP asked about SUPPORT., not instructions. Why the need to be so harsh?

I think the support that the op was looking for, was not about how to feed formula, but that her baby would be fine if she needed to ff, that it is good food for the baby. Support to keep the guilt at bay.

But well done to all those who said you don't need support when you ff! Way to go to prevent those who need it asking for advice.

I don't think she wanted instructions as to how to prepare a bottle.

Have you any inkling of the damage and deaths wreaked in the developing world by the aggressive tactics of formula companies

This is a case in point of the lack of support shown to some women who choose to ff. Way to go to adding to new mothers' guilt I don't understand the relevance of this comment to the discussion but does at least highlight the point that issues in developing countries is where bf messages need to be pushed. Not to the vast majority of Mnetters . But why not just keep adding to the scaremongering on this thread.

purdeybirdie shock horror yes it is ridiculously easy to get making formula wrong.

As for wasting the NHS resources - really???? It would save the NHS money not having to deal with all the ill babies that come in because parents got making them up all wrong! And what about the support side where new mothers, at their most vulnerable, get spouted some of the crap you see on bf threads, receive what could be deemed abuse from professionals who are supposed to be there to help, and it pushes them over the edge?

When we came back to the UK I told the gp the situation and she said in regards to ff 'oh well, that's understandable'. I was very as it shouldn't have mattered what choice I had made. If I had ff for another reason I suspect we would have gotten a lecture.

Breast is most definitely not best in some cases. Without going into details me and DD would have died if we had tried. I am very grateful for formula and it was also lovely to see DH feeding her as well. We received lots of support post-pregnancy for ff and no judgements but pre-pregnancy it was not the same. It was terrifying coming home from hospital with her and having to do it all ourselves. We knew the theory but the practicalities were something very different at first.

As an aside I was also disappointed to not have a discussion on donor breastmilk either. We were just told that wasn't an option. Perhaps it is only for preemies or poorly babies? I never looked into it further as a result (different country) and DD has never had any problems health - wise since coming home, but I thought breast milk banks were becoming a bigger thing now?

I honestly think the way forward would be if everyone took a step back and stopped being so us/ them about baby milk.
Milk whether from breast or bottle is just milk. It should be about supporting mothers- all mothers.
So instead of bf counsellors/ groups (how lovely and inclusive! Way to make people feel great!) there should be infant feeding/ general baby groups with support to all.
It really upsets me as well when people seem to think it's always about the mother. I had loads of milk, I think anyway, my boobs were certainly very painful (worse than the birth but it was a CS!) But DS was asleep all the time. He couldn't open his mouth, thought boobs were lovely for sleeping on. Even bottle feeding we had to force his mouth open- it was a 2 person job. One to hold his mouth open while the other got the teat in.
In hindsight we shouldn't have been sent home after 48 hours with a 36 week jaundiced non latching constantly sleeping baby. No wonder he lost so much weight!

I tried to express milk for my ds but because he was born 12 weeks early I didn't produce enough milk to carry on beyond 3 months. I switched to premature formula and the looks and comments I got from ignorant women were unbelievable, I had no choice as my milk was like water and coming out in drips. I already had a horrific birth and there was a point when I didn't think my desk would make it & then some stupid idiot would make me feel even worse. He was tube fed for 9 months so people could see that there were medical issues but it still didn't stop them.

I didn't get any support from the bf counsellor apart from the 'oh you're formula feeding' comment.

I think money should be spent on hiring and developing good quality, highly trained mid wives and associated staff, there are too many idiots that are endangering the lives of women and babies now.

This thread is making me want to celebrate FF in support of those parents who do! I still have very fond memories of DS's first bottle (undiagnosed tongue-tie so couldn't latch properly and wasn't gaining weight plus did lots of damage to me), it was wonderful. I felt so incredibly happy and relieved to see him feeding peacefully for once

Complain to the hospital. They can discuss formula in antenatal classes, it is an enduring myth that they can't. The Baby Friendly initiative even encourages open discussion of formula feeding alongside breastfeeding (and these are the people who are usually cited when people say 'oh we can't talk about formula')

The only thing they can't do is show a group how to prepare formula before birth, because it is unsafe if not clearly recalled and should be shown individually to parents after birth (and often is not). They can show pregnant women individually if they request it though.

Yanbu

I had an Elcs and chose to ff from birth so I didn't attend any of these group type classes or visits.

Dd had her first little ready to go bottle like a dream and always fed very easily. However I was terrified about mixing the actual powder

The first bottle steriliser we took back as I thought it had blown up ....when actually it was just how the cycle and buttons worked....
Dp was coming back with trays of the cartons of Aptamil and we were getting through them at a fine rate....when dd was about 3 weeks old a friend popped in and chuckled when she saw all these cartons. She gave us a formula lesson and off we tentatively went.

For those stating ....what support do you need? I think the very fact that you have asked the question shows you care enough to want to do the best you can whichever path you end up going.

Good luck.

This is what's wrong with maternity services OP and you are def not being unreasonable. I think that formula feeding is in many ways harder than bf- emotionally and practically. In the hospital my youngest dd had a few bottles while waiting for my milk to come in. She was nearly 10lbs and the indications were clear that she was hungry. I made the decision to give her formula in the middle of the night and did. The next day my usual midwife came on duty and said that she had wanted to tell me to give her a bottle but wasn't allowed to!!!

It had no impact on bfeeding at all and we went on to exclusively bf for 6 months...

I only did Nct classes and formula feeding was definitely discussed, both as part of the general class and the breast feeding class.